SM> Re: IPP> 4 significant proposed increases in conformance requirements for the IPP Document object spec

SM> Re: IPP> 4 significant proposed increases in conformance requirements for the IPP Document object spec

SM> Re: IPP> 4 significant proposed increases in conformance requirements for the IPP Document object spec

McDonald, Ira imcdonald at sharplabs.com
Sat Apr 19 16:57:38 EDT 2003


Hi Harry,

1)  Support for modifying document object after submission is present in
    the FetchJobs interface that can OVERRIDE existing job or document
    attributes as the job flows from PSI Print Service to PSI Target
    Device.  Whereas IPP Resubmit/Restart do NOT allow the attributes
    to be modified in the operation but require "job-hold-until" to be
    set to allow SUBSEQUENT use of the (OPTIONAL) Set-Job-Attributes.

    But what I meant below was:
    Send-Document and Send-URI are both OPTIONAL in IPP/1.1, but the
    AddDocumentByValue and AddDocumentByReference are REQUIRED in PSI/1.0.
    Since we are only just now adding Document objects to IPP, I simply
    propose that we offer PSI-equivalent capabilities in the protocol
    (for implementations of the Document object specification _only_).

2)  I agree that PDL override is hard to implement (in _some_ PDLs), but
    what Tom and I have proposed is to disambiguate _which_ attributes
    (if any) can be guaranteed to successfully override the PDL.  Seems
    to me like a good clarity enhancement to IPP.

Cheers,
- Ira


-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Lewis [mailto:harryl at us.ibm.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:03 AM
To: McDonald, Ira
Cc: Hastings, Tom N; ipp at pwg.org; ps at pwg.org; sm at pwg.org
Subject: RE: SM> Re: IPP> 4 significant proposed increases in conformance
requirements for the IPP Document object spec



1. Help me out as to where PSI states this it is mandatory to support
modification of a Document object after the job is submitted. 
2.  I support healthy alignment with FSG and I've been pushing for a job
ticket interface to PSI. It's just... every time I ask for a show of hands
regarding actual support for PDL-override the response is always lackluster.

---------------------------------------------- 
Harry Lewis 
IBM Printing Systems 
---------------------------------------------- 


"McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald at sharplabs.com> 
Sent by: owner-sm at pwg.org 
04/18/2003 12:38 PM         
        To:        Harry Lewis/Boulder/IBM at IBMUS, "Hastings, Tom N"
<hastings at cp10.es.xerox.com> 
        cc:        ipp at pwg.org, ps at pwg.org, sm at pwg.org 
        Subject:        RE: SM> Re: IPP> 4 significant proposed increases in
conformance         requirements for the IPP Document object spec



Hi Harry,

(1) PSI has ALREADY made all of the equivalent WSDL methods REQUIRED.
I'm merely suggesting equivalent functionality for the IPP Document
object implementors.  And yes it _is_ like IPPv2 - the Document 
object is the main thing missing from IPP/1.1.  But this is just
and extension.  We're not mandating that all IPP/1.1 implementations
support the Document object and operations.

(2) The FSG expects to (using PAPI/1.0 API) convert any job ticket
instructions to IPP job stream instructions.  The job ticket support
of PDL override is useless in the Free Standards Linux environment
without the correspond IPP attributes.

Cheers,
- Ira



-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Lewis [mailto:harryl at us.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 12:16 PM
To: Hastings, Tom N
Cc: ipp at pwg.org; ps at pwg.org; sm at pwg.org
Subject: SM> Re: IPP> 4 significant proposed increases in conformance
requirements for the IPP Document object spec



I'm afraid we are 

1. Over complicating the Document Object 
 - This is really beginning to look like IPPv2 
2. Risking lackluster adoption based on unnecessary mandatory operations 

Look at the premise behind (2), below. "... users should be able to modify a
document object after the job is submitted...". This might be something nice
for some users but there are simpler alternatives (such as canceling the job
and resubmitting it).... that don't require an architectural mandate. 

As for (4) guaranteeing pdl-override... I've always been opposed to the
concept of pdl-override... it's premise being that we can't keep ourselves
from generating Postscript with embedded production instructions and even if
we could there is a mass of Postscript (still) being used for interchange.
This was not true when me made the error of specifying pdl-override in IPP
and it is less true today. Separating content from production instruction
via the use of a job ticket has always been the goal. That goal is now
within reach. I think, then, it is time to consider deprecating
pdl-override...certainly not elevating the "feature" by mandating further
complexity. 
---------------------------------------------- 
Harry Lewis 
IBM Printing Systems 
---------------------------------------------- 


"Hastings, Tom N" <hastings at cp10.es.xerox.com> 
Sent by: owner-ipp at pwg.org 
04/17/2003 03:00 PM         
       To:        sm at pwg.org 
       cc:        ps at pwg.org, ipp at pwg.org 
       Subject:        IPP> 4 significant proposed increases in conformance
requirements for         the IPP Document object spec



Attendees:  Harry Lewis, Bob Taylor, Dave Hall, Lee Farrell, Gail Songer,
Ira McDonald, Peter Zehler, Tom Hastings (did I miss anyone?)

At today's PWG Semantic Model telecon we did a page by page review of the
IPP Document Object Spec in preparation for Last Call:

ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/ipp/new_DOC/wd-ippdoc10-20030407.pdf.zip

This mail note contains several significant changes in Printer conformance
requirements that we agreed to for the indicated reasons.  However, because
of their significance, we agreed to post these changes to the DL for a two
week comment period.  Objectsion and comments on these changes are due by
Friday, May 2, end of business.  Silence will be interpreted as approval, so
if you object, please send email.

The other less significant agreements will be posted in a separate mail note
as minutes.  We resolved all of the issues and did the page by page review
up to page 42 Table 7.  We will continue the page by page at another two
hour telecon next Thursday, April 24, same time: 1-3 PM EDT (10-12 PDT) with
the same version of the specification.  Same call-in number and HP webex.

Agreed to significant conformance requirements changes:


1. Change the Send-URI operation and the corresponding
"reference-uri-schemes-supported" (1setOf uriScheme) Printer Description
attribute from OPTIONAL to REQUIRED for a Printer to support.  We agreed
that a conforming implementation MAY have an empty list for the
"reference-uri-schemes-supported" Printer Description attribute.

Reason:  PSI requires this operation (and has no OPTIONAL attributes).
Optional operations are much less likely to get support by clients.  It is
best practice for an OPTIONAL extension specification (such as this spec) to
have no OPTIONAL operations, so that user clients will receive the same
level of service from all Printer implementations that support this
extension.


2. Change the Set-Document-Attributes operation from OPTIIOAL to REQUIRED
for a Printer to support.

Reason: This is the Document object spec and users should be able to modify
a Document object after the job is submitted.  Optional operations are much
less likely to get support by users clients.  It is best practice for an
OPTIONAL extension specification (such as this spec) to have no OPTIONAL
operations, so that user clients will receive the same level of service from
all Printer implementations that support this extension.


3. Change the Set-Job-Attributes operation from OPTIONAL to RECOMMENDED for
a Printer to support.

Reason: To go along with the change in the conformance requirements for the
Set-Document-Attributes operation.  However, don't REQUIRE
Set-Job-Attributes, since most of the interesting attributes are document
attributes, not job attributes.


4. Add an OPTIONAL 'guaranteed" value (see [ippsave] section 8.1) for the
"pdl-overrides-supported" Printer Description attribute (REQUIRED in
[rfc2911] section 4.4.28) to augment 'not-attempted', and 'attempted'
values.  Also add a REQUIRED "pdl-override-attributes-guaranteed" (1setOf
type2 keyword) Printer Description attribute.  The values indicate those Job
Template and Document Template attributes for which the Printer guarrantees
success in overriding the corresponding instruction in the PDL data.  The
values of this attribute returned in the Get-Printer-Attributes response MAY
be colored by the "document-format" operation attribute supplied by the
client in the request, if the Printer's guarrantee depends on the document
format.  A conforming Printer MAY return 'none' as the value.  

Reason:  The IPPFAX needs the ability for the Printer to indicate which Job
Template and Document Template attributes the Printer is able to guarantee
success in overriding the PDL.  Waiting for the Production Printing Set2
[ippsave] to be updated does meet the schedule for IPPFAX which is also
trying to go out to last call.  Also this extension is analoguous to our
addition of "job-mandatory-attributes" to give a finer granularity to
"ipp-attribute-fidelity" (boolean) operation attribute.  


Please send comments by Friday, May 2, 2003.

Thanks,
Tom



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