[SM3] Informal minutes of W3C Workshop conference call

[SM3] Informal minutes of W3C Workshop conference call

[SM3] Informal minutes of W3C Workshop conference call

Michael Sweet michael.r.sweet at gmail.com
Thu Aug 22 00:11:59 UTC 2013


FWIW, the WebKit guys are also keen on using PDF, generated from the HTML+CSS+whatever via a standard DOM method.

But of course PDF only takes care of the document data transfer - we still need job ticketing and page properties to generate the right document data, and then to get the right hardcopy output...


On 2013-08-21, at 6:28 PM, Paul Tykodi <ptykodi at tykodi.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> In some of the limited discussion about the workshop on the CSS mailing
> list, which is how I learned about the upcoming workshop back in July, the
> Adobe representative to the CSS workgroup mentioned that they felt PDF was
> the best option to consider as a first step towards bringing something into
> being quickly that would start the W3C down the road towards the long term
> publishing goals.
> 
> I think their opinion aligns well with Bill's point a) below.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> /Paul
> --
> Paul Tykodi
> Principal Consultant
> TCS - Tykodi Consulting Services LLC
> 
> Tel/Fax: 603-343-1820
> Mobile:  603-866-0712
> E-mail:  ptykodi at tykodi.com
> WWW:  http://www.tykodi.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sm3-bounces at pwg.org [mailto:sm3-bounces at pwg.org] On Behalf Of William
> A Wagner
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:49 PM
> To: 'Semantic Model 3.0 Workgroup discussion list'
> Subject: Re: [SM3] Informal minutes of W3C Workshop conference call
> 
> Comments and questions for Thursday's call. I preface some of these
> statements by affirming that printing from the Web is not in the area of my
> expertise, so that some of my questions, indeed some of my comments, may be
> way off-base. In such case, I request (gentle) correction and redirection.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. I understand that, in France, everyone is on vacation for the month of
> August. That seems to be the case with the W3C workshop personnel since the
> announcement of Agenda, posting of position papers and, it appears, method
> of registering the restricted number of attendees has not yet occurred (so
> far as I can see). Information from Paul is that the agenda "has very few
> position papers being presented, but some panels and open discussion"  I do
> not expect that  the PWG will need to present its position paper, largely
> because we propose an important component of any overall solution to the
> "The Challenge" (namely a set of elements for defining user processing
> intent in printing products) rather than  a specific solution itself.
> However, I echo a previously stated suggestion that it would be beneficial
> to create and post  a concise statement of the purpose and importance of the
> Semantic Model and of the PWG Job Ticket that emerges from that model.
> Indeed, I suggest that, in this period of realistically considering out
> projects,  such a statement would be of interest to much of the membership
> as well.
> 
> 2. Referring to the information on the W3C workshop page:
> 
>                "Designers are finding HTML and CSS incomplete when compared
> to XML and XSL-FO, and that in turn is limiting compared to professional
> interactive page design programs.", questions and comments are:
> 
> a)       Although I understand their publishing-based origin in SGML, one
> thinks of  HTML  (and XML) being used in web pages. I expect that a
> stand-alone or web-based word processor could provide a document coded in
> HTML with CSS reflecting formatting, or in XML with XSL providing
> formatting, but what is the advantage over PDF or XPS in which many of the
> features they ask for already exist? To what extent is HTML or XML currently
> in use for commercial publishing of printed material?
> 
> b)       The PWG has some history with CSS-Print (which was intended to be
> used with XHTML-Print). Presumably XHTML-Print was to describe a document's
> content and structure; CSS-Print was to describe processing and presumably
> could be changed without affecting content. Of course, processing
> instructions often affect formatting, so a clear distinction is not
> possible. It appears that XSL (or XSL-FO) serves a function for XLM coded
> documents similar to what CSS serve for HTML coded documents.
> 
> c)       A reasonable PWG position would not limit the PWG contribution to
> defining a set of print processing elements in CSS, but also for XSL-FO (or
> whatever other content language/formatting pair are proposed. The problem is
> when existing elements in those languages do not align with PWG PJT
> elements. Finding those may not be feasible in available time.
> 
> 3.  Topics (and presumably panels, sessions, etc) identified  that may be of
> interest to PWG for contribution and/or understanding are:
> 
> .         Formatting to print using CSS
> 
> .         Print on demand: color management, ink control [?], specifying
> media, binding, trimming, finishing, and perhaps
> 
> .         Multiple output formats: are CSS media queries enough? What about
> alternate content, image replacement, subsetting?
> 
> (I am surprised there is no XSL-FO session)
> 
> 1.      Are there any others?
> 
> 2.      What is meant by "subsetting"?
> 
> 3.      Are we interested (perhaps particularly for Print on Demand) in
> proposing something other than XML  or HTML as the content language, or an
> alternate system
> 
> 4.      If, as the page suggests, "Customers want to buy a printed book, or
> to go to a kiosk and get an eBook printed and have the same quality.", how
> do we propose print process control with documents in the various E-book
> formats?
> 
> 5.      Do we have any suggestions on 'Rights Tracking"?
> 
> Thanks for plowing though my (partial) dump on this. I think we do need to
> generate and post something that can be referred to as truly representing
> the PWG position. (We might clean up the posted PJT candidate spec too, if
> we want to refer to it.a few little things like status and line numbering).
> I should better understand where this W3C group is coming from, both with
> regard to current in-place print publishing technology and vision for the
> future.
> 
> Bill Wagner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sm3-bounces at pwg.org [mailto:sm3-bounces at pwg.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Sweet
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 3:02 PM
> To: sm3 at pwg.org
> Subject: [SM3] Informal minutes of W3C Workshop conference call
> 
> 
> 
> All,
> 
> 
> 
> Here are my informal minutes of today's W3C Workshop conference call.  We
> will have another call next Thursday, August 22, 2013 at 2pm ET.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> W3C Workshop Conference Call
> 
> August 15, 2013 at 2pm ET / 11am PT
> 
> 
> 
> Attendees:
> 
> 
> 
> Nancy Chen
> 
> Daniel Manchala (Xerox)
> 
> Glen Petrie (Epson)
> 
> Mike Sweet (Apple)
> 
> Paul Tykodi (TCS)
> 
> Bill Wagner (TIC)
> 
> Rick Yardumian (Canon)
> 
> 
> 
> Notes:
> 
> 
> 
>      . Paul: No updates on W3C site yet
> 
>            . Don't know whether we will be presenting
> 
>            . Don't have access to other position papers
> 
>            . Paul got previous notification at 5pm ET
> 
>      . Mike probably won't be able to attend
> 
>            . Bill can and will make arrangements
> 
>      . Proposed presentation:
> 
>            . CSS properties corresponding to SM Job Ticket elements
> 
>                  . Review old CSS Print stuff
> 
>                  . copies, finishings, media, sides
> 
>                  . Proposal: Extend CSS 2.1 Print to office and commercial
> printing
> 
>                  . Also review CSS media queries
> 
>                        . for printer capabilities (color mode, duplex,
> staple, media, etc.)
> 
>                  . Q: Are we doing production printing or ???
> 
>                        . A: Certainly light production, print-on-demand,
> book printing, etc.
> 
>                  . Q: CSS3 Page Media Module: should we upsell this?
> 
>                        . A: Yes, seems important for printing, also useful
> for screen content with headers and footers (very common on web sites today
> using "position: fixed" content.)
> 
>                        . Intertwined with job ticket - media and sides,
> staple? might be used in media queries to control paper margins, front
> side/back side, etc.
> 
>                  . Alternative CSS
> 
>                        . Single CSS property listing job tickets
> 
>                              . PWG PJT a required/recommended format?
> 
>                              . JDF optional
> 
>                        . Maybe still have a few properties to describe the
> important aspects of the job ticket (media, sides, finishings, copies)
> 
>                  . Show implementations of CSS Print
> 
>                        . What is implemented by the major browsers
> 
>                        . What third-party software is available?
> 
>                  . Show PWG PJT coverage vs. CSS
> 
>                        . Add slide showing level of effort required to
> update CSS 2.1 Print
> 
>                        . Most browsers support CSS Print properties/media
> queries
> 
>                              . THEAD, position: fixed content support
> lagging
> 
>                        . Adding CSS properties should not be a big effort,
> much harder to get rendering changes done
> 
>            . Job Ticket Mapping experience
> 
>                  . PPD, MSPS, JDF, AFP, etc.
> 
>                  . Why you need standard job tickets/elements
> 
>            . Print Experience/DOM
> 
>                  . Selecting a printer
> 
>                  . Getting printer capabilities
> 
>                  . Standard UI capabilities?
> 
>                        . to specify job ticket elements?
> 
>                        . but that has been a circular argument for many
> years?
> 
>                              . maybe because they are not
> printing-literate?
> 
>                              . based on the list of CSS properties we come
> up with?
> 
>                  . Also restrictions? Maybe mention but we have no
> solutions...
> 
>                        . no print (publications)
> 
>                        . no save
> 
>                        . only 1 copy (coupons, shipping labels)
> 
>                        . always N copies
> 
>            . Presentation length:
> 
>                  . Presumably short
> 
>            . Next steps:
> 
>                  . Wait for word from W3C
> 
>                  . Also review existing position papers
> 
>                  . If we present, include backup slides for specific
> details
> 
>                  . If we don't present, still do a slide deck we can refer
> to...
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> Michael Sweet, Senior Printing System Engineer, PWG Chair
> 
> 
> 
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_____________
Michael Sweet




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