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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.5346.5" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE>  </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US vLink=blue link=blue> <DIV dir=ltr align=left>Hi Elliott,</DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left>> When a property and its equivalent attribute are specified, which one wins?  I don’t recall seeing this anywhere, but maybe I missed it.<o:p></o:p> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left>Since the attribute is converted into a *UA* (printer) stylesheet rule, the *author* stylesheet rule specifying the property will override the UA setting and win.</DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left>A note on the non-printable region issue:  I have the following wording proposed for the upcoming release:</DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left>It is recommended that user agents with a <A href="outbind://90/#non-printable-area">non-printable area</A> (that is, user agents which cannot print over the entire sheet surface) establish a default page margin via the user agent stylesheet that includes the non-printable area. It is further recommended that authors assume that the default page area will not include unprintable regions.</DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left>The intent here is that authors have a tool to avoid unprintable regions.  That won't eliminate the problem you describe in #2 below, but it hopefully limits the problem to poorly-designed pages.</DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left>Best wishes,</DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left>Melinda</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> From: Elliott Bradshaw [mailto:Elliott.Bradshaw@Zoran.com] Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 2:40 PM To: Grant, Melinda; xp@pwg.org Subject: RE: XP> Margins, borders, padding, and backgrounds </DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV class=Section1> Hi Melinda,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This is very helpful.  At first blush I’m inclined to agree with all your suggestions.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I would like to raise 2 related issues for discussion by the group:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1> <LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo3">When a property and its equivalent attribute are specified, which one wins?  I don’t recall seeing this anywhere, but maybe I missed it.<o:p></o:p> </LI></OL> <o:p> </o:p> <OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1 start=2> <LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo3">When a printer has nonprintable margins, how should we handle them (assuming they exceed the applicable page/body margins)?  One approach is to simply clip the content, but this seems to me to run against the spirit of “content is king”.  Another approach would be to shrink to fit so that the inside-the-margins area is shrunk slightly and perhaps shifted to fit inside the physically printable area.  The algebra is a little tricky when we are also shrinking to fit a smaller page size, but I think this could be solved.<o:p></o:p> </LI></OL> <o:p> </o:p> I’m wondering what people think about these, and whether we should try to decide them and publish the answer somewhere.  If there is interest in shrink-to-fit for #2, I can write up a more specific proposal.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Cheers,<o:p></o:p> Elliott<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center> <HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2> </DIV> From: owner-xp@pwg.org [mailto:owner-xp@pwg.org] On Behalf Of Grant, Melinda Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 4:49 PM To: xp@pwg.org Subject: XP> Margins, borders, padding, and backgrounds<o:p></o:p></DIV> <o:p> </o:p> <DIV> From HP's perspective (and I think we're not alone), the CSS specification is difficult to interpret with respect to how margins, borders, padding, and backgrounds work when applied to the <body> and <html> elements.  Recently we have learned that the CSS3 Paged Media module is not clear on how the same properties used within an @page context should interact with the html properties.<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> I'd like to share my new-and-improved understanding based on discussions within the CSS WG: ;-)<o:p></o:p></DIV> <UL type=disc> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo1">First, there are html attributes and there are css properties.  In html, the body element has a bgcolor attribute, but the html element does not.  For XHTML documents, the UA (printer) must convert the body bgcolor attribute into an equivalent printer style rule: So <body bgcolor="red"> gets converted into the printer stylesheet rule: body {background-color: red}.  (This gets a bit more complicated for HTML documents, but we don't need to go there.)  This printer stylesheet rule will be overridden by an author stylesheet rule, should one exist. See <A href="http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/cascade.html#q13">http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/cascade.html#q13</A>. <o:p></o:p> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo1">The body element is no different when it comes to CSS styling from any other element.  Backgrounds, margins etc behave just as they do for a div, for example. <o:p></o:p> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo1">The html element is the root element.  It can also be selected with ':root'.  It is special, in that a background is applied to the margins as well as the content area.  This is because it 'paints the canvas', which is infinite.  The only way in XHTML to put a background in the html margin area and/or the body margin area is to use a background on the html element.  (See <A href="http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/colors.html#q2">http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/colors.html#q2</A>.) <o:p></o:p> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo1">The attached file, 'margin-both.xhtml' when opened with Firefox, provides an example of how html and body edgings should be rendered.<o:p></o:p> </LI></UL> <DIV> There are still some open questions about how @page properties work.  I am hoping to publish a new version within the next week or so that will resolve questions such as the following:  [My proposed answers are in brackets.]<o:p></o:p></DIV> <UL type=disc> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2">Is a font property set within an @page rule applied to the page content area (unless overridden by properties set on elements rendered on the page), or just to the contents of the page margin boxes?  [Proposed Answer: Just to the margin boxes.] <o:p></o:p> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2">Do the html and page margins collapse? [no] <o:p></o:p> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2">Are html and body borders closed at the bottom of each page, or just at the end of the document? [Just at the end of the document] <o:p></o:p> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2">Does a background property set within an @page rule get applied to the page margins?  [Yes] To the page area unless obscured by html, body, or other backgrounds? [????, under discussion] <o:p></o:p> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2">On the last page of a document, do the html and body properties terminate immediately after the last content, or at the bottom of the page (e.g., do the html and body margins get drawn right below the last paragraph, or at the bottom of the page? [Immediately after content.] <o:p></o:p> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2">Similarly, on the last page, do the page bg, border, etc. extend to the bottom of the page, or terminate after the last content? [bottom of the page] <o:p></o:p> <LI class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo2">Others?<o:p></o:p> </LI></UL> <DIV> Best regards,<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV> Melinda<o:p></o:p></DIV>   _____  HP  -   Melinda Grant Connectivity Standards  Consumer Printing and Imaging +1 (541) 582-3681 melinda.grant@hp.com      _____ <o:p></o:p> <DIV>  <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>