Hi IPP Mailing list,
This forwarded email thread has a little more content included than the thread Ira forwarded on Monday along with a note from him mentioning the content of the email thread had been discussed at last Monday’s SC meeting.
The concept being discussed is that a document to be printed is purposefully built using HTML and the target for the document is a printer and not a web browser. I believe the following article has a good introduction to the idea: https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/01/designing-for-print-with-css/
Best Regards,
/Paul
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From: Paul Tykodi <ptykodi at tykodi.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 8:33 AM
To: 'PWG Steering Committee (restricted)' <sc at pwg.org>
Subject: FW: Question - CSS Working Group Activities & W3C Publishing Business Group Goals
Hi Steering Committee,
FYI …
Best Regards,
/Paul
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Paul Tykodi
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From: Schindler Wolfgang Dr. <w.schindler at pons.de <mailto:w.schindler at pons.de> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 6:39 AM
To: Laurent Le Meur <laurent at edrlab.org <mailto:laurent at edrlab.org> >; Cristina Mussinelli - Fondazione LIA <cristina.mussinelli at fondazionelia.org <mailto:cristina.mussinelli at fondazionelia.org> >
Cc: Ivan Herman <ivan at w3.org <mailto:ivan at w3.org> >; Liisa McCloy-Kelley <LMcCloy-Kelley at randomhouse.com <mailto:LMcCloy-Kelley at randomhouse.com> >; "Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平)" <shiohama at mediado.jp <mailto:shiohama at mediado.jp> >; W3C Publishing Steering Committee <public-publishing-sc at w3.org <mailto:public-publishing-sc at w3.org> >; ptykodi at tykodi.com <mailto:ptykodi at tykodi.com>
Subject: AW: Question - CSS Working Group Activities & W3C Publishing Business Group Goals
Dear Ivan, dear colleagues,
The ideal data format for single-source publishing is XML or (X)HTML. If you intend to produce printed products from these data and be independent from a vendor-specific tool, you might either use XSL-FO or Print CSS. There are commercial tools for either approach, e.g. from Antenna House, and for CSS there is also Prince or PDFreactor, but also open-source alternatives.
In my opinion, it makes a lot of sense to extend the coverage of paged media in CSS to be able to express all the features needed for high-quality print products in “pure” CSS. I know about books (e.g. Christin Götz: “Print CSS. Das CSS paged media Modul.: Grundlagen und Referenz”, ISBN: 978-3938529089) on that topic and I have seen printed books produced by using this approach.
Thus I would argue in favour of exploring this issue in more detail in W3C Publishing and if they agree, in the CSS WG, which would of course be the right place for this kind of work.
Best,
Wolfgang
Von: Laurent Le Meur <laurent at edrlab.org <mailto:laurent at edrlab.org> >
Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. September 2023 17:59
An: Cristina Mussinelli - Fondazione LIA <cristina.mussinelli at fondazionelia.org <mailto:cristina.mussinelli at fondazionelia.org> >
Cc: Ivan Herman <ivan at w3.org <mailto:ivan at w3.org> >; Liisa McCloy-Kelley <LMcCloy-Kelley at randomhouse.com <mailto:LMcCloy-Kelley at randomhouse.com> >; "Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平)" <shiohama at mediado.jp <mailto:shiohama at mediado.jp> >; W3C Publishing Steering Committee <public-publishing-sc at w3.org <mailto:public-publishing-sc at w3.org> >; ptykodi at tykodi.com <mailto:ptykodi at tykodi.com>
Betreff: Re: Question - CSS Working Group Activities & W3C Publishing Business Group Goals
As developers of reading apps, we are mostly interested in the improvement of CSS related to "synthetic" pagination, which is a subset of what needed for printing reflowable publications.
The CSS multi-columns we're using in Readium, and what most modern reading systems are using also (but some not) is cumbersome for many reasons. One among others is the problem of forcing page breaks in a multi-columned html page.
We've been dreaming about the availability CSS pages or CSS regions, we can even say that we came to the W3C for such evolutions, but alas...
Maybe it's time to try again.
Best regards
Laurent
Le 4 sept. 2023 à 10:15, Cristina Mussinelli - Fondazione LIA <cristina.mussinelli at fondazionelia.org <mailto:cristina.mussinelli at fondazionelia.org> > a écrit :
Dear Ivan
Good morning and thank you very much for the information.
The topic seems important to me for all those who have single-source-publishing flows: XML to PDF for printing or HTML to PDF for printing.
In Italy (and Europe) there are not many, but still it makes sense in my opinion.
Many companies that produce PDF files automatically (bills, airline tickets, contracts, etc.) use these technologies. It would be interesting to also address the issue of producing accessible PDFs from these technologies (XML, XHTML, CSS).
All my best
Cristina
Da: Ivan Herman <ivan at w3.org <mailto:ivan at w3.org> >
Data: lunedì 4 settembre 2023, 07:12
A: Liisa McCloy-Kelley <LMcCloy-Kelley at randomhouse.com>, Cristina Mussinelli - Fondazione LIA <cristina.mussinelli at fondazionelia.org <mailto:cristina.mussinelli at fondazionelia.org> >, Daihei Shiohama <shiohama at mediado.jp <mailto:shiohama at mediado.jp> >
Cc: "'PBG Steering Committee (Public)'" <public-publishing-sc at w3.org <mailto:public-publishing-sc at w3.org> >, <ptykodi at tykodi.com <mailto:ptykodi at tykodi.com> >
Oggetto: Fwd: Question - CSS Working Group Activities & W3C Publishing Business Group Goals
Liisa, Christina, Daihei,
please find, below, a mail I have just received from Paul Tykodi, from the IEEE Printer Working Group. I would think that exploring how far the Publishing Industry is interested by the development of CSS print would be of importance, and maybe it is a good idea for the PBG to organize some sort of a seminar/meeting, inviting the people from the PWG but also the chairs of the CSS WG.
We may also think about having a short discussion about it at TPAC next week.
Cheers
Ivan
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Paul Tykodi" <ptykodi at tykodi.com <mailto:ptykodi at tykodi.com> >
Subject: Question - CSS Working Group Activities & W3C Publishing Business Group Goals
Date: 1 September 2023 at 23:05:49 CEST
To: <ivan at w3.org <mailto:ivan at w3.org> >
Reply-To: <ptykodi at tykodi.com <mailto:ptykodi at tykodi.com> >
Message-Id: <032901d9dd18$168a3450$439e9cf0$@tykodi.com <mailto:032901d9dd18$168a3450$439e9cf0$@tykodi.com> >
Hi Ivan,
I haven’t posted into the W3C mailing lists I monitor for quite some time so I wanted to wish you belated congratulations on your retirement!
I am still participating in the activities of the IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group standards developing organization and I am currently the Co-chair of the PWG Internet Printing Protocol (IPP) Working Group. The PWG is the standards body, which originally developed the CSS-Print ( <https://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-xpcssprt10-20030331-5102.2.html> https://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-xpcssprt10-20030331-5102.2.html) and XHTML-Print ( <https://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-xpxprt10-20030331-5102.1.pdf> https://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/candidates/cs-xpxprt10-20030331-5102.1.pdf) standards.
Bill Wagner also represented the PWG and gave the attached presentation at the W3C Workshop titled “Publishing and the Open Web Platform” <https://www.w3.org/2012/12/global-publisher/> https://www.w3.org/2012/12/global-publisher/ held at the Centre Pompidou in Paris, France back in 2013.
Today, I received an email notification about an upcoming meeting of the W3C CSS Working Group. It reminded me that an active CSS Working Group might offer an opportunity to improve the printing support defined by CSS.
As far as I know, there has not been a lot of energy put into most of the following specifications or initiatives in the recent past:
Priorities for CSS from the Digital Publishing Interest Group - <https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-css-priorities/> https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-css-priorities/
CSS Print Profile - <https://www.w3.org/TR/css-print/> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-print/ - CSS Working Group note says the working group has discontinued work on the document
XHTML-Print - Second Edition - <https://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-print/> https://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-print/
CSS Paged Media Module Level 3 - <https://www.w3.org/TR/css-page-3/> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-page-3/
If the W3C Publishing Business Group might want to advocate for some specific CSS based improvements focused on printing/publishing during this latest iteration of CSS Working Group activities, I believe the Printer Working Group members would likely be willing to participate in W3C CSS working group related activities focused on improving how the CSS standard supports printing/publishing activities.
Thanks.
Best Regards,
/Paul
Paul Tykodi
Principal Consultant
Tykodi Consulting Svcs LLC
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Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG IPP Working Group
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Ivan Herman, W3C
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