IFX Mail Archive: Re: IFX> ippget and Lost Events

IFX Mail Archive: Re: IFX> ippget and Lost Events

Re: IFX> ippget and Lost Events

From: Carl Kugler (kugler@us.ibm.com)
Date: Wed Aug 15 2001 - 12:59:29 EDT

  • Next message: Hastings, Tom N: "IFX> IPPFAX IFX and UIF spec schedules"

    Well, I don't think it's worth spending too much time designing an
    elaborate polling-based solution, because it won't scale. What Harry & I
    originally proposed (see
    ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/ipp/new_NOT/Simple_IPP_Notification.pdf) was
    limited in scope, mainly for job progress type notifications back to the
    original sender only. For multi-recipient notifications, Printer status
    change notifications, etc., one of the other delivery methods is probably
    more appropriate.

    I mean, just think about hundreds of desktop clients, in a corporate
    "distributed printing" scenario, all polling the poor printer every 15
    seconds. 15 seconds is frequent enough to make persistent connections
    worthwhile, but now you have hundreds of simultaneous connections. Or, you
    refuse persistent connections and deal with dozens of new connections per
    second, possibly including Digest authentication challenge/responses or TLS
    handshakes for each one. Won't scale.

         -Carl

                                                                                                                               
                        "Marty Joel"
                        <mjoel@netreo To: ipp@pwg.org, ifx@pwg.org
                        n.com> cc:
                        Sent by: Subject: Re: IFX> ippget and Lost Events
                        owner-ifx@pwg
                        .org
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                               
                        08/14/2001
                        11:09 PM
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                               

    Hi Carl,

    You're right, I certainly haven't solved the
    backhoe-through-the-network-cable scenario. While there isn't a good way
    to handle an indefinite time until the cable is fixed, perhaps I can
    suggest a reasonable solution.

    Maybe there should be 3 time values: 1) how often polling should be done to
    be a good network citizen (such as 15 seconds), 2) the minimum number of
    seconds that must pass before an event can be deleted (such as 3 minutes,
    to allow clients to listen in on existing subscriptions without losing
    events), and 3) the maximum number of seconds before an event is deleted
    (such as an hour).

    On a low-end implementation, the 2nd and 3rd numbers might be the same.

    On a high-end implementation, however, it could keep track of the listeners
    of each subscription, and if the 2nd number of seconds has elapsed and all
    listeners have received an event, the event can be deleted, instead of
    lasting until the 3rd number of seconds has elapsed. Maybe there should be
    a 4th number: the number of seconds since last polling before a listener is
    assumed to be dead, and no longer listening. Since a polling listener
    won't inform the receiver that it's going to stop polling for events, when
    a listener stops polling, this 4th number prevents all events from all
    subscriptions that a listener had previously polled from having to last the
    3rd number of seconds. If we decide on this type of solution, we'll have
    to figure out how listeners are uniquely identified, since
    requesting-user-name is optional.

    Regards,

    Marty

    "Carl Kugler" <kugler@us.ibm.com>@pwg.org on 08/14/2001 10:18:21 AM

    Sent by: owner-ifx@pwg.org

    To: "Marty Joel" <mjoel@netreon.com>
    cc: ifx@pwg.org, ipp@pwg.org

    Subject: Re: IFX> ippget and Lost Events

    Marty-

    I don't think you've solved the problem. You still can't predict how long
    it will take for the connection to be reestablished, and there is still a
    limit to how long an event will be retained, so you can still lose events.
    You can't beat the backhoe-through-the-network-cable scenario with
    protocols.

         -Carl

    P.S. An earlier version of this spec
    (ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/ipp/new_NOT/ipp-notify-poll-000202.doc) had
    minimum and maximum event lifetimes.

                        "Marty Joel"
                        <mjoel@netreo To: ipp@pwg.org, ifx@pwg.org
                        n.com> cc:
                        Sent by: Subject: IFX> ippget and Lost
    Events
                        owner-ifx@pwg
                        .org

                        08/13/2001
                        09:58 PM

    Hello,

    I'm concerned that in the non-wait mode of Get-Notifications, events could
    be lost. The problem lies in the fact that the sender is unable to always
    predict how long it will take to connect to the receiver, or how long it
    will take once it connects for the receiver to process the request. The
    sender knows how long the receiver takes before deleting events, so it
    knows it must connect and have its request get processed before that number
    of seconds, but connection times may vary, as may printer responsiveness
    due to load.

    The following is not a proposal, so much as it is a possible solution to
    the lost event problem, and is intended to lead to discussion.

    If there was a one-to-one relationship between subscriptions and senders,
    then the receiver could keep events for a long period of time, and delete
    them once they have been retrieved. The problem is when there are multiple
    senders who want to receive the same events. Because subscriptions can be
    created when a job is created, a second sender who wants the same events
    couldn't create a subscription soon enough to not lose per-job
    subscriptions.

    If the receiver knew how many senders there were for each subscription, it
    could keep track of how many senders received an event, and delete the
    event once all senders have received it. If the event contained a list of
    the senders, and they were uniquely identified, not only could the event be
    deleted once all senders have received it, but this could solve the
    duplicate event problem. Maybe instead of a lifetime value, there should
    be a minimum and a maximum lifetime value. An event would live until its
    minimum lifetime even if all senders that have registered for that event
    have already received the event. This would allow a new sender that also
    wants to receive that event to be able to. An event would live no longer
    than its maximum lifetime value. This way, if a sender lost interest, the
    event will still get deleted. I'm sure we would want to dictate some
    minimum value for the minimum lifetime value, and suggest some minimum
    difference between the minimum and maximum lifetimes.

    Regards,

    Marty Joel



    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Aug 15 2001 - 13:01:37 EDT