Hi Don,
I see your point. And agree with it. Standards shouldn't
have higher status than their normative dependencies.
But I think that IPP is maybe a "special case". The PWG has
(by an apparent strong concensus) simply abandoned submitting
printing industry standards to the IETF. Most of all, this
is because a string of IETF Applications Area Directors have
had no interest in IPP, Printer MIB, etc.
The Printer MIB v2 has finally been adopted because it was
(lucky enough to be) a MIB - so Bert Wijnen and the very
competent IETF Ops and Mgmt Area "MIB experts" took over
and helped us move it forward.
Unfortunately, IPP remains stuck in IETF Applications Area.
Of course, we could try to recharter the IETF IPP WG with
the stated purpose of advancing to Draft Standard (there
is precedent for such a recharter). But I don't think
that the IETF is at all likely to grant the new charter.
Cheers,
- Ira McDonald
High North Inc
PS - It really pains me to be arguing on the "wrong" side
of this issue. But I believe that IPP is an important
unifying standard in the printing industry.
-----Original Message-----
From: don@lexmark.com [mailto:don@lexmark.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 11:16 AM
To: McDonald, Ira
Cc: Harry Lewis; pwg@pwg.org; thrasher@lexmark.com
Subject: RE: PWG> Process
Ira:
If it is truly the case the IPP never advances beyond "Proposed" why should
the extensions advance beyond "Candidate"? If the base upon which the PWG
extensions are built has not been proven to be equivalent to a PWG Standard
(for whatever reason) how can the extension be any better? If your house
is built to the highest possible standards to resist a tornado but it is
built on a foundation of jello, would you call it a tornado resistant
house?
While I'm not excited by the idea, we could define some special exception
process by which this rule could be suspended. Only some kind of very high
bar would be appropriate... 75% approval of the membership? 80%? 100%?
**********************************************
Don Wright don@lexmark.com
Chair, IEEE SA Standards Board
Member, IEEE-ISTO Board of Directors
f.wright@ieee.org / f.wright@computer.org
Director, Alliances & Standards
Lexmark International
740 New Circle Rd
Lexington, Ky 40550
859-825-4808 (phone) 603-963-8352 (fax)
**********************************************
"McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com> on 06/05/2003 11:06:53 AM
To: "'don@lexmark.com'" <don@lexmark.com>, "McDonald, Ira"
<imcdonald@sharplabs.com>
cc: Harry Lewis <harryl@us.ibm.com>, pwg@pwg.org, thrasher@lexmark.com
Subject: RE: PWG> Process
Hi Don,
OK, I accept your suggestion that PWG Standard is "roughly"
equivalent to IETF Draft Standard (in requirements to be met).
But IETF IPP/1.1 (RFC 2910/2911) will most likely _never_
advance from IETF Proposed Standard to IETF Draft Standard,
which would mean that no IEEE/ISTO PWG spec for IPP extensions
can ever advance beyond PWG Candidate Standard.
The point I'm concerned about is standards in OTHER bodies
that are never going to advance shouldn't hold back PWG
standards, I think.
Comments?
Cheers,
- Ira McDonald
High North Inc
PS - Note that for IPP/1.1 (RFC 2910/2911) to advance to
IETF Draft Standard status, the IETF IPP WG would have to
be rechartered and a set of thorough (EVERY feature) tests
of interoperability would have to be performed, written up,
and submitted to the IETF. Wildly unlikely...
-----Original Message-----
From: don@lexmark.com [mailto:don@lexmark.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 3:44 PM
To: McDonald, Ira
Cc: 'don@lexmark.com'; Harry Lewis; pwg@pwg.org; thrasher@lexmark.com
Subject: RE: PWG> Process
Ira:
I used the word "roughly" with intent.
The PWG should decide whether PWG Standard is "roughly" equivalent to IETF
Draft Standard or to IETF Internet Standard.
Looking at the requirements, I believe IETF Draft Standard is the
equivalent of PWG Standard.
**********************************************
Don Wright don@lexmark.com
Chair, IEEE SA Standards Board
Member, IEEE-ISTO Board of Directors
f.wright@ieee.org / f.wright@computer.org
Director, Alliances & Standards
Lexmark International
740 New Circle Rd
Lexington, Ky 40550
859-825-4808 (phone) 603-963-8352 (fax)
**********************************************
"McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com> on 06/04/2003 03:38:09 PM
To: "'don@lexmark.com'" <don@lexmark.com>, Harry Lewis
<harryl@us.ibm.com>
cc: pwg@pwg.org, thrasher@lexmark.com
Subject: RE: PWG> Process
Hi Don,
All very good comments. I agree with all of your proposed additions
and wording changes.
I'm curious about your comment (18) below. It makes sense (on one
level), but would mean that until IETF IPP/1.1 (RFC 2910/2911) moves
to Internet Standard status (after going from current Proposed
Standard status to future Draft Standard status), no PWG IPP spec
could ever move higher than PWG Candidate Standard. Right?
Is this desirable, given that the IETF IPP WG is moribund and will
presumably close permanently in the not too distant future?
Cheers,
- Ira McDonald
High North Inc
-----Original Message-----
From: don@lexmark.com [mailto:don@lexmark.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 12:10 PM
To: Harry Lewis
Cc: pwg@pwg.org; thrasher@lexmark.com
Subject: Re: PWG> Process
<...snip...>
18) Clause 4.7, Page 10, line 355: add "PWG extensions to non-PWG standards
cannot attain PWG Standard status until the base standard has attained the
rough equivalent of PWG Standard status in the other organization."
<...snip...>
**********************************************
Don Wright don@lexmark.com
Chair, IEEE SA Standards Board
Member, IEEE-ISTO Board of Directors
f.wright@ieee.org / f.wright@computer.org
Director, Alliances & Standards
Lexmark International
740 New Circle Rd
Lexington, Ky 40550
859-825-4808 (phone) 603-963-8352 (fax)
**********************************************
Harry Lewis <harryl@us.ibm.com>@pwg.org on 05/21/2003 07:04:12 PM
Sent by: owner-pwg@pwg.org
To: pwg@pwg.org
cc:
Subject: PWG> Process
There is really no last call process for the process document ;-). Please
review and prepare to try and close this formally at the Portland plenary.
If you can't make Portland please share you comments ahead of time so they
may be incorporated.
ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/general/process/pwg-process20-20030414.pdf
----------------------------------------------
Harry Lewis
Chairman - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
http://www.pwg.org
IBM Printing Systems
http://www.ibm.com/printers
303-924-5337
----------------------------------------------
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