From: Stuart Rowley (Stuart.Rowley@ktd-kyocera.com)
Date: Mon Jul 10 2006 - 20:30:27 EDT
Hi Ira and Bill,
I would like to back track from my previous statement that a unique
media key seems necessary. Instead I would like to restate the
problem(s).
1) Print jobs need to be able to uniquely or at least unambiguously
identify the size and type of media that should be used.
2) Accounting applications need to categorize the size and types of
media used for billing purposes.
I'm not sure "unique" is achievable. You listed color/type/coating, but
customers could also want to specify just about any media type
attribute: weight, grain, brightness, manufacturer, content (5% fair
trade hand picked hemp fibers).... so rather than unique, it seems we
have to decide the level to go to.
Accounting applications probably do not normally need this same level of
definition. Indeed most of our devices use just standard types such as
bond, letterhead, transparency, etc. as well as a few customizable
types. Thus, from an accounting standpoint, anything other than the
standard types is custom. So for accounting it is sufficient (and maybe
more desirable) to say "bond" rather than
"white-bond-matte-24lb-89brightness".
Another question I have is if the size is identified in ...SizeName, why
should it also be included in the media key?
Thanks,
Stuart
Stuart Rowley
Kyocera Technology Development
________________________________
From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com]
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:34 PM
To: Stuart Rowley; wamwagner@comcast.net
Cc: wims@pwg.org
Subject: RE: WIMS> RE: Counter MIB questions
Hi Stuart,
The attribute media-key (in media-col) is meant to be a unique key.
Description of the attribute's value in PWG 5100.3 is underspecified.
I suggest we should require using hyphen-separated media descriptive
keywords (size, color, type) from PWG 5101.1 (Standard Media Names)
followed by a free-form suffix based on media weight, coating, etc.
(taken from the other attributes in media-col in PWG 5100.3).
For example,
iso-a4-white-stationery-satin (size/color/type/front coating)
Comments?
Cheers,
- Ira
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
phone: +1-906-494-2434
email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Rowley [mailto:Stuart.Rowley@ktd-kyocera.com]
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 11:22 AM
To: McDonald, Ira; wamwagner@comcast.net
Cc: wims@pwg.org
Subject: RE: WIMS> RE: Counter MIB questions
Bill and Ira,
A unique media key seems necessary to me. I have looked at
5100.3, and it seems it would take careful study for me to understand
the implementation of media key in this document. I just didn't get it
in a quick pass.
Thanks,
Stuart
Stuart Rowley
Kyocera Technology Development
________________________________
From: lynnewagner@comcast.net [mailto:lynnewagner@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 7:03 PM
To: McDonald, Ira; 'wamwagner@comcast.net'; Stuart Rowley
Cc: wims@pwg.org
Subject: RE: WIMS> RE: Counter MIB questions
Hello Ira,
Yes, that sounds good. Do we have any comments from the list?
Bill Wagner
--
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Consultant, Nurse Career and Mentor Coach
Phone: 978-764-3982
E-Mail: lynnewagner@comcast.net
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com>
Hi Bill,
The best solution would be to lead '...MediaInfo' as
descriptive and
add a new attribute '...MediaKey' (see PWG 5100.3) that
IS unique.
This wants some consideration and discussion.
Cheers,
- Ira
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
phone: +1-906-494-2434
email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
-----Original Message-----
From: wamwagner@comcast.net
[mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:34 PM
To: McDonald, Ira; 'Stuart Rowley'
Cc: wims@pwg.org
Subject: RE: WIMS> RE: Counter MIB questions
Ira,
Understood. That is a problem with not
prototyping, although there is no guarentee that all issues will be
found when prototyping. So, pending further discoveries, perhaps we
should consider an errata to the counter spec? I take it that we would
add another object, with 'icMediaUsedMediaInfo' being redefined and
retyped as a media qualifier and (perhaps) ''icMediaUsedMediaDescrip"
being added for user infomation?
Bill Wagner
-------------- Original message
--------------
From: "McDonald, Ira"
<imcdonald@sharplabs.com>
Hi Bill,
I agree that 'icMediaUsedMediaInfo' is
overloaded with two probably
incompatible uses, but it isn't the MIB
that did this overloading. This
is a bug in the PWG Candidate Standard
Imaging System Counters
(PWG 5106.1) - see section 5.3 on the
bottom of page 27.
This bug cannot be fixed in the MIB
independently, without revision
of the source document's element
semantics.
Cheers,
- Ira
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software
Architect)
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
phone: +1-906-494-2434
email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
-----Original Message-----
From: wamwagner@comcast.net
[mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 4:36 PM
To: McDonald, Ira; 'Stuart Rowley'
Cc: wims@pwg.org
Subject: Re: WIMS> RE: Counter MIB
questions
OK. Ira, it seems that you agree with
Stuart that:
icMediaUsedMediaSizeName DisplayString
and
icMediaUsedMediaInfo SnmpAdminString
both are not localized.
The former is a PWG 5101.1 defined
keyword; the latter is freeform in that it is not a public-spec defined
keyword, but operationally should be one of a set of strings defined for
use in a particular environment or with a particular application.
This appears to overload
icMediaUsedMediaInfo as both a qualifying descriptor for media
identification and as a description for human consumption.
Since the MIB is informational only
(pending prototyping), and Stuart may be doing the prototyping, I would
suggest that we collect the issues discovered during this effort and
define an updated version of the MIB for resubmission as a candidate
standard.
Bill Wagner
-------------- Original message
--------------
From: "McDonald, Ira"
<imcdonald@sharplabs.com>
Hi Stuart,
The ASCII keyword in '...SizeName'
should NOT be localized,
but the equivalent elements in
'...MediaInfo' ARE supposed to
be localized.
But, because '...MediaInfo' in the
Abstact Counter spec (PWG
5106.1) and Counter MIB is required for
the key distinguishing
two instances of the same size media
(e.g., by color), it's highly
undesirable to change the value of
'...MediaInfo' when the printer
locale changes - lousy side effects for
accounting applications.
Bill - I consider this a probable errata
against the Counter MIB.
Cheers,
- Ira
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software
Architect)
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
phone: +1-906-494-2434
email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Rowley
[mailto:Stuart.Rowley@ktd-kyocera.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:07 PM
To: McDonald, Ira
Cc: wims@pwg.org
Subject: RE: Counter MIB questions
Hi Ira,
Thanks for the quick reply.
The description for
icMediaUsedMediaSizeName says:
"The media size self-describing name for
this specific media,
for use with remote network management
scripts and GUIs,
specified as a Unicode string encoded in
UTF-8 (RFC 3629)
in the language specified in
'icGeneralNaturalLanguage'.
...so would this ASCII keyword be
localized...?
Thanks,
Stuart
________________________________
From: McDonald, Ira
[mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 12:47 PM
To: Stuart Rowley; McDonald, Ira
Cc: 'wims@pwg.org'
Subject: RE: Counter MIB questions
Hi Stuart,
I copied the WIMS list, so others could
see my remarks and chime in.
The significance of
icMediaUsedMediaSizeName being DisplayString is
that it MUST be strict ASCII (it's a
_keyword_ that follows the format in
PWG 5101.1, not a free form name - even
a custom size name has a
format and MUST be strict ASCII).
icMediaUsedMediaInfo is a description
that makes '...SizeName' unique for
instances of different (but same size)
media. Because the IETF leaned
on us hard to make all future MIB
descriptive strings be internationalized,
it's of type SnmpAdminString (UTF-8) and
localized.
Now - nothing prevents you from making
the "localized" media info in
Kyocera products be of the form:
media-info = english-media-identifier
":" localized-description
So that your accounting applications use
the invariant identifier and
save the localized-description (if at
all) in a separate database field
that's informational.
Or you could cheat (I don't recommend
this) and leave the value of
icGeneralNaturalLanguage empty and just
support all descriptive
fields in US-English only (the default)
- I _really_ don't recommend
this approach, because it's not very
customer-friendly.
Hope this helps,
- Ira
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software
Architect)
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
phone: +1-906-494-2434
email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Rowley
[mailto:Stuart.Rowley@ktd-kyocera.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 1:47 PM
To: McDonald, Ira
Subject: Counters MIB questions
Hi Ira,
I hope you had an enjoyable 4th of July
weekend.
I have a couple questions about the
Counters spec and MIB regarding media used.
There are 3 objects used to describe the
media size and type.
icMediaUsedMediaSizeName DisplayString,
icMediaUsedMediaInfo SnmpAdminString,
icMediaUsedMediaName SnmpAdminString
What is the significance of
icMediaUsedMediaSizeName using DisplayString and the others using
SnmpAdminString?
In the MIB it lists all three as being
localized, but it seems only icMediaUsedMediaName should be localized. I
need icMediaUsedMediaSizeName and icMediaUsedMediaInfo to be used by our
accounting apps to identify the size and type for billing purposes. This
would be hard to achieve using localized strings. Our apps would need to
read standardized names from these two objects. Am I missing something?
Thanks,
Stuart
Stuart Rowley
Network Product Mgr.
Kyocera Technology Development
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