From: Richard_Landau@Dell.com
Date: Thu Aug 16 2007 - 11:43:47 EDT
Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I will bring all this up with the
PDM group and see what they think. Meantime, I will start with the
definitions of persistence levels and the conformance statements from
the Counter Spec and see if we want to refine them at all.
rick
________________________________
From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 15:23
To: wamwagner@comcast.net; Landau, Richard; wims@pwg.org
Cc: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
Subject: RE: WIMS> When are counters reset, if ever?
Hi Rick,
All of what Bill says below is why Abstract Counter spec says MUST for
'lifetime' System-level counters and SHOULD for 'lifetime' Service-level
counters (we felt that any higher conformance requirement would be too
often violated).
By analogy, the PDM MIB/XML should probably say SHOULD for 'lifetime'
counters (since it's a component of a system, but not the whole system)?
Or, PDM WG could agree to really keep non-volatile 'lifetime' counters
and
NOT clear them with a service person's 'factoryReset' operation.
Cheers,
- Ira
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
phone: +1-906-494-2434
email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
-----Original Message-----
From: wamwagner@comcast.net [mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:10 PM
To: Richard_Landau@Dell.com; McDonald, Ira; wims@pwg.org
Cc: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
Subject: RE: WIMS> When are counters reset, if ever?
A few observations.
When the printer MIB was first worked on, there was some concern about
lifetime persistance because of the cost, limited capacity, and limited
write cycles of persisent memory. This is less significant now.
In some cases, there is still a problem of how often the persistent
counters (like sheet count) are updated from the dynamic counters which
accumulate the values.
The printers I am aware of have a way of clearing persistent memory,
which would include the persistent counters. The method is "secret" , or
at least well hidden, so it would be an authorized maintenance operation
(in theory) perhaps best corresponding to board installation. This
generally clears all persistent values. This method does not allow
setting or clearing individual counters. This does inherently a full
reset to factory; but is more extensive than an operator accessible
"reset to factory" function, which does not affect "lifetime" counters.
Some printers with specific "accounting packages" do allow a password
authenticated adinistrator to set or clear specific counters which might
be considerd lifetime counters..
I think that there will be a range of actual implementations relative
to clearing a"lifetime" counter, but they should at least have in common
that it is not a readily accessible user function.
I recall a situation where copier counters were being read remotely (and
they could be reset); the application always checked a reading less than
the previous one for counter wrap, and if it was not, flagged this for
human check.
Bill Wagner
-------------- Original message --------------
From: <Richard_Landau@Dell.com>
Actually, the Counter spec goes beyond the definitions of the
levels of persistence. It states (in Section 5.1.3)
Conforming Imaging Systems MUST implement System Totals counters
with Lifetime persistence. Conforming Imaging Systems SHOULD implement
specific Service counters with Lifetime persistence.
I agree that "since installation" covers the case of board
replacment. And "Reset" does specifically mention "administrative reset
of imaging counter (e.g., a software reset by an accounting
application)" so that includes the more serious case of restoring
factory defaults. But not for lifetime.
So we have an idea what future devices should do, sort of. I
was hoping to get a read of what known devices actually do. The
"lifetime" counters in printers were defined and implemented long before
the Counter spec was drafted, Are these "lifetime" counters reset
ever, for instance when factory defaults are restored? Does anyone have
experience with this, even by spec, for existing devices?
For some of the counters, such as overall age of the device,
number of power-on cycles, and like that, I would prefer to specify the
persistence rather than leave it up to the manufacturer.
Thanks, all, for the hints and any additional guidance you can
give.
rick
________________________________
From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 14:45
To: Landau, Richard; wims@pwg.org
Cc: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
Subject: RE: WIMS> When are counters reset, if ever?
Hi Rick,
The Counter MIB (and Abstract Spec) define the persistence of
counters
as lifetime(3), powerOn(4), or reset(5). But it does not
further qualify the
flavor of reset (factory defaults, service/accounting, board
replacement).
Note that the 'lifetime' comment says 'since last install'
(board replacement).
I personally believe that counters should have a REQUIRED
persistence
of lifetime and that it should be permitted (as in Counter MIB)
to have a
second instance of the counters that has a 'reset' persistence
(especially
for accounting applications).
So my answer to your question below is B/C/D and your missing
'powerOn'.
My two cents - give the customers whatever they want.
Cheers,
- Ira
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
phone: +1-906-494-2434
email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-wims@pwg.org [mailto:owner-wims@pwg.org]On Behalf Of
Richard_Landau@Dell.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 2:14 PM
To: wims@pwg.org
Cc: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
Subject: WIMS> When are counters reset, if ever?
General question for WIMS people. A question has arisen in the
PDM (projector mgt) group that I would like to hear opinions on.
Question: When, if ever, are counters such as prtMarkerLifeCount
and prtAlertAllEvents reset? It has been proposed that similar counters
in projectors and displays should be reset if the entire device is reset
to factory defaults, such as might happen when a printer is redeployed;
or when a service person decides that they ought to be reset.
These suggestions are not exactly the same as the distinctions
made in the Counter spec. Personally, I think any such counters should
be implemented with lifetime persistence. It's an odometer; turning it
backwards is at least nonsense if not fraud. But I don't know what
various existing devices might do, or what best current practice is, so
that would be interesting to know, too.
Opinions, please.
Q: When should such so-called "life counters" be set to zero?
A. Never.
B. When the device is reset to factory defaults.
C. When an authorized service person says so.
D. When someone replaces the controller board.
E. Other (please specify) _________________
Thanks very much for your time and thoughtful answers.
rick
----------------------
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CTO Office
+1-512-728-9023, One Dell Way, RR5-3, MS RR5-09, Round Rock, TX
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