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Another thought... the "statefull" approach seems to fall apart if we use PUNCH as the example rather than STAPLE. ---------------------------------------------- Harry Lewis IBM STSM Chairman - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group http://www.pwg.org IBM Printing Systems http://www.ibm.com/printers 303-924-5337 ---------------------------------------------- <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td width=40%>Harry Lewis/Boulder/IBM@IBMUS Sent by: fin-owner@pwg.org 09/16/2004 09:49 AM <td width=59%> <table width=100%> <tr> <td> <div align=right>To</div> <td valign=top>"McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com> <tr> <td> <div align=right>cc</div> <td valign=top>fin@pwg.org, "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com>, "'Hopkins, Mark'" <Mark.Hopkins2@xerox.com>, "Bergman, Ron" <Ron.Bergman@hitachi-ps.us> <tr> <td> <div align=right>Subject</div> <td valign=top>RE: FIN> RE: Finisher MIB [finDeviceMaxCapacity]</table> <table> <tr valign=top> <td> <td></table> </table> I'm not so sure... The Printer MIB uses the term "remaining" capacity, which I agree is stateful (changes during operation) The Fin MIB (<tt>finDeviceCurrentCapacity</tt>) uses the term "current" capacity which is either 1. just an inconsistent (with the Printer MIB) use of terms 2. meant to be the currently configured capacity... not the max and not the remaining. ---------------------------------------------- Harry Lewis IBM STSM Chairman - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group http://www.pwg.org IBM Printing Systems http://www.ibm.com/printers 303-924-5337 ---------------------------------------------- <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td width=26%>"McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com> Sent by: fin-owner@pwg.org 09/16/2004 09:26 AM <td width=73%> <table width=100%> <tr> <td width=14%> <div align=right>To</div> <td width=85% valign=top>"'Hopkins, Mark'" <Mark.Hopkins2@xerox.com>, Harry Lewis/Boulder/IBM@IBMUS, "Bergman, Ron" <Ron.Bergman@hitachi-ps.us> <tr> <td> <div align=right>cc</div> <td valign=top>fin@pwg.org, "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com> <tr> <td> <div align=right>Subject</div> <td valign=top>RE: FIN> RE: Finisher MIB [finDeviceMaxCapacity]</table> <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td width=49%> <td width=50%></table> </table> <tt> Hi Mark, Thanks to Ron for pointing out the parallel usage of prtOutputMaxCapacity and prtOutputRemainingCapacity in Printer MIB v2 (RFC 3805). I'm now convinced that Harry's last alternative is the correct one:  90/70, 90/69, 90/68, ... (as the REMAINING capacity of the stapler decreases). The '...[Remaining|Current][Capacity|Level]' objects in Printer MIB and Finisher MIB are clearly meant to be stateful (change during operation). I don't think your 90/90 choice is correct. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com -----Original Message----- From: Hopkins, Mark [mailto:Mark.Hopkins2@xerox.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 9:46 AM To: Harry Lewis; Bergman, Ron Cc: fin@pwg.org; McDonald, Ira Subject: RE: FIN> RE: Finisher MIB [finDeviceMaxCapacity] Thanks all, I am going to use  Harry's interpretation and will return 90/90. I think it will be the most useful to a management tool. I will recommend that we use finDeviceMaxCapacity to report the maximum number of sheets that can be handled at one time by this finishing operation. Then we will use finDeviceCurrentCapacity to report any reduced maximum number of sheets based on other settings in the system.  I will not be surprised if finDeviceCurrentCapacity always equals finDeviceMaxCapacity. I don't think that the current number of sheets ready to be finished would be of much use to a remote management tool since it will change before the management tool can react. Finally, the finisher's output tray level will be reported in the Printer MIB. Mark Hopkins Xerox -----Original Message----- From: Harry Lewis [mailto:harryl@us.ibm.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 11:24 PM To: Bergman, Ron Cc: fin@pwg.org; McDonald, Ira; Hopkins, Mark Subject: RE: FIN> RE: Finisher MIB [finDeviceMaxCapacity] Actually, I think the answer is 90 / 90 in this case. I am assuming when Mark says "the stapler is able to staple 90 sheets together" that he means that the MAX capacity of the stapler is 90. It the stapler were "stopped down" so to speak... so that the CURRENT capacity were (ex) 35... then I'd say 90 / 35. At least, this is how I had been viewing these attributes. The only other interpretation that makes sense to me (in Mark's example) would be 90 / 70, 90 / 69, 90 / 68... ---------------------------------------------- Harry Lewis IBM STSM Chairman - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group http://www.pwg.org IBM Printing Systems http://www.ibm.com/printers 303-924-5337 ---------------------------------------------- "Bergman, Ron" <Ron.Bergman@hitachi-ps.us> Sent by: fin-owner@pwg.org 09/15/2004 06:56 PM To"Hopkins, Mark" <Mark.Hopkins2@xerox.com>, "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com>, <fin@pwg.org> cc SubjectRE: FIN> RE: Finisher MIB [finDeviceMaxCapacity] Mark, You're making this too complicated. The stapler is a finishing device.  The output tray is an output. Max capacity for the stapler is 90 and for the output is 500. Current capacity (level) is 20 and 200 respectively.               Ron -----Original Message----- From: Hopkins, Mark [mailto:Mark.Hopkins2@xerox.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 2:40 PM To: Bergman, Ron; McDonald, Ira; fin@pwg.org Subject: RE: FIN> RE: Finisher MIB [finDeviceMaxCapacity] To be concrete about this: Suppose I have a stapler attached to a printer on an output tray to can hold 500 sheets.  The stapler is able to staple 90 sheets together. Suppose the output tray has 200 sheets in it.  Suppose we are currently printing a 40 sheet document to be stapled and the first 20 sheets are in the stapler, waiting for the rest of the document. At this point, should finDeviceMaxCapacity be set to 500, and finDeviceCurrentCapacity be set to 300? Or should finDeviceMaxCapacity be set to 90 and finDeviceCurrentCapacity be set to 70? Or should finDeviceMaxCapacity be set to 500 and finDeviceCurrentCapacity be set to 90? Mark -----Original Message----- From: Bergman, Ron [mailto:Ron.Bergman@hitachi-ps.us] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 5:25 PM To: McDonald, Ira; Hopkins, Mark; fin@pwg.org Subject: RE: FIN> RE: Finisher MIB [finDeviceMaxCapacity] Ira, I agree finDeviceCurrentCapacity can be misleading.  It is intended to indicate the current "level" (normally sheets) of the device. I don't know why we settled on this terminolgy.  But if you look at the output group in the printer MIB, it indicates "remaining capacity".               Ron Bergman -----Original Message----- From: fin-owner@pwg.org [mailto:fin-owner@pwg.org]On Behalf Of McDonald, Ira Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 2:18 PM To: 'Hopkins, Mark'; McDonald, Ira; 'fin@pwg.org' Subject: FIN> RE: Finisher MIB [finDeviceMaxCapacity] Hi Mark, finDeviceMaxCapacity refers to the (usually paper handling) capacity of the finishing device itself (binder, stapler, etc.), not of supplies (like staples). finDeviceCurrentCapacity is ambiguous (by my lights).  I don't think it applies.  Note it's NOT called '...CurrentLevel', as used in finSupplyCurrentLevel. Ron - can you clarify? Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com -----Original Message----- From: Hopkins, Mark [mailto:Mark.Hopkins2@xerox.com] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:05 PM To: McDonald, Ira Subject: Finisher MIB Ira, I was just wondering if you could provide a hint to the intended meaning of MIB objects finDeviceMaxCapacity and finDeviceCurrentCapacity in the finisher mib. These do not describe how much of a supply remains (those are in finSupplyMaxCapacity and finSupplyCurrentLevel), or how much room remains in the output tray (see prtOutputRemainingCapacity), Mark Hopkins Xerox Corp 585-425-6378</tt>