Thanks for your explanation.
BTW I did not suggest that Down and Testing were reasonably substates of
IDLE, but that they could be considered substates of STOPPED or, from an
external viewpoint, equivalent to UNKNOWN if the state cannot be
Since, from my understanding, IPP is the model of the Print service of an
MFD, defining a different state set for other MFD Services makes it
difficult to have a consistent approach to modeling MFD services. However,
if, as you suggest, we are committed to consider TESTING and DOWN as primary
states of a Service, I think we need to better deal with how these states
are entered and exited.
I do not see in the document the information that ShutdownService shuts down
but does NOT end that service instance (it may be inferred from Fig 26, but
it is counterintuitive). I see no mention of a DeleteService operation or
action (although I agree that if ShutdownService does not end that service
instance, something should.) As I have indicated, I can find no
identification of a RestartService operation, or other explanation how this
action is effected. I can find no explanation of how a Service is put into a
TESTING state nor (without Restart) how it transitions to anything except
Models are approximations or idealized views, and I think that different
models may be equally valid. But model descriptions should attempt to be
consistent and complete within themselves. They should be well explained and
neither intuitive understanding nor inherent understanding of some
unidentified standard should be assumed.
It may not be appropriate to attempt to do this with the Scan Service at
this time, but if we are to define models with consistent semantics, I think
we need to settle on and properly document the Service states and the state
transition actions. Para 184.108.40.206 of the Scan Service document does present
a transition model, but I suggest a better documentation of the transition
actions is necessary.
As always, opinions from others would be appreciated.
From: owner-mfd at pwg.org [mailto:owner-mfd at pwg.org] On Behalf Of Ira McDonald
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:47 AM
To: William A Wagner; Ira McDonald
Cc: mfd at pwg.org
Subject: Re: MFD> Comments and questions on 20090112 Scan Model Doc
Thanks for all your good comments on Scan Service.
Here are my thoughts about service state.
It's IPP that is deficient in primary states.
DOWN is NOT some state-reason of IDLE.
It is a primary state in CIM Services as well.
By the same token, TESTING is a primary state.
A service (or device) in TESTING MUST NOT
execute any normal user jobs.
The stupidly deficient IPP states are the wrong
model to follow here, because mapping to CIM
and other interfaces will become convoluted and
fragile (i.e., implementation mappings will vary)
- behavior of operations would depend on the
state-reasons and not the primary state.
Lastly, the WIMS/1.0 Protocol and Schema set
(and more recent Semantic Model/2.0 schemas)
have had this set of service states and their state
transitions for five years - it's pretty late to change
StartupService instantiates a NEW service instance.
ShutdownService shuts down but does NOT destroy
that service instance. RestartService is necessary
to restart the previous service instance.
These three admin operations are needed for every
Imaging System service. These operations are taken
from ISO 10175-Part3 (DPA Admin), as are equivalent
IPP operations in RFC 3998.
DeleteService is probably also necessary (after a
ShutdownService) to actually delete the inactive
service object It's specified in ISO 10175-Part 3, but
was not included in RFC 3998 or WIMS/SM schema.
BTW, while not exhaustive, the state transition tables
at the end of ISO 10175-Part3 are informative here.
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc
email: blueroofmusic at gmail.com
579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 11:05 PM, William A Wagner
<wamwagner at comcast.net> wrote:
> The following questions/comments are a result of my effort to generalize
> information for the overall MFD document. I acknowledge that the questions
> may be a result of my misunderstanding rather than an error or
> in the document. But that may suggest that some clarification may be
>>>> Bill Wagner
>>>>>> 1. Line 2172 refers to an administrative RestartJob operation as
> Fig 33 and Fig 41. . No such operation is included under interfaces. As
> described, it is unclear that a RestartScanJob has the same sense as the
> Restart-Job (restart a job that is retained in the queue after processing
> has completed); indeed, it is unclear how RestartScanJob could have the
> same sense. Is there such an operation ?
>>>> 2. Line 1393 refers to Restart in the same context as Startup and
> table 1403 refers to a RestartScanService operation. . Line 2166 refers to
> generic Restart. Fig 26, Fig 33 refer to a restart(), presumably
> RestartScanService. No such operation is included under Interfaces.
> Actually, I find the sentence starting "Otherwise, if the Scan Service
> needs a ShutdownScanService() operation
" on line 2165, confusing.
>>>> 3. One of the service states is TESTING. Fig 26 indicates that only
> way into testing is via a testing() request. No such request is
> Should we indicate that testing() represents one of possibly several
> implementation dependent functions?
>>>> 4. In Fig 26, the only ways out of TESTING are shutdown() to DOWN
> restart(), presumably RestartService, to IDLE. Again, is there a
> RestartService operation? Also, this diagram does not show the transition
> from UNKNOWN (initialization phase) that is identified in Fig 25 to be to
> DOWN; indeed, there is no entry to Fig 26. The Scan Service Theory of
> operation suggests that testing may take place in (or from) the
> Initialization phase (which right now only includes the UNKNOWN state.)
> reference is the HR MIB statuses; but the draft does not cover the other
> defined statuses of RUNNING and WARNING. Does it make sense to mix IPP
> states with HR Device statuses? Do we really want to try to standardize
> Service startup and testing? I realize that this is a bit late in the
> to bring up, but in considering the MFD overall case, adapting the IPP
> approach of just three Service states: Idle, Processing, and Stopped
> with an inherent Unknown) would seem adequate. If the Service is
> states, "Down" and "Testing" are variations of the Stopped state covered
> state-reasons; if the Service is not reporting state (i.e., is effectively
> "Unknown" as far as the rest of the world) then the transitions and
> intermediate states can be considered implementation dependent. I
> that this would affect 220.127.116.11. ( It would also address most of the
>>>> 5. Line 1077 and subsequent. I do not understand the reference to
> (Console is discussed in para 2.2.12 of RFC3805)
>>>> 6. Line 1084 . Cover is not defined in RFC3805 except as part of
> General Printer. I suggest the reference be dropped.
>>>> 7. Line 1122; OutputChannelDefaultJobControlLanguage has a type
>>>> 8. Line 1127; OutputChannelInterface has a type interface
>>>> 9. Line 1107; Interpreter is listed as not applicable to Scan
> What subunit does formatting of the digital document?