SM> RE: IPP> "-actual" multivalue types issue

SM> RE: IPP> "-actual" multivalue types issue

SM> RE: IPP> "-actual" multivalue types issue

Zehler, Peter PZehler at crt.xerox.com
Mon Oct 28 11:44:09 EST 2002


Dennis,
Comments below.
Pete

				Peter Zehler
				XEROX
				Xerox Architecture Center
				Email: PZehler at crt.xerox.com
				Voice:    (585) 265-8755
				FAX:      (585) 265-8871 
				US Mail: Peter Zehler
					        Xerox Corp.
					        800 Phillips Rd.
					        M/S 128-30E
					        Webster NY, 14580-9701



-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Carney [mailto:dcarney at us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:51 AM
To: Zehler, Peter
Subject: RE: IPP> "-actual" multivalue types issue



Peter,

I see your point, but I do feel obligated to make the following comments on
your discussion of the example I gave:
1) My example discussed Windows separator pages.  With these, there is no
indication given to the printer that there *is* a separator page.
Therefore, unless the printer had additional information somehow, it *could
not* populate the "separator-sheets-actual" attribute.
<PZ>The Printer could however support the "PageOverrides" element based on 
its processing.  The Printer would either recognize the page as a separator 
sheet or generically classify it as a page override. <PZ/>

2) I am no expert on the "PWG 5100.3, Production Printing Attributes - Set
1" document, but I do not see any "sides" information in the
"separator-sheets" attribute.
<PZ> Any template attribute can be added to the "separator-sheets" attribute
group.  It is of course an extension but that is the way your example was
stated. <PZ/>

Therefore, in my example, the printer *could* provide possibly sufficient
information to the client using multivalued "-actual" attributes, but
*could not* using single-valued attributes.
<PZ> But the semantics for the multivalued "media" attribute is not well
defined.
There is no agreed upon semantics for the ordering of the multiple values or
how 
to determine the number of each media used.  It is not well defined which 
attributes are parallel attributes and must have their i'th members
interpreted 
together.  In your example "media" and "sides" are parallel attributes.  
What about something like the "finishing" attribute which is already 
multivalued. <PZ/>

This one example might not be enough to justify the additional complexity
of multivalued attributes, but I wanted to set the record straight on it
nonetheless.

Dennis


 

                      "Zehler, Peter"

                      <PZehler at crt.xero        To:       Dennis
Carney/Boulder/IBM at IBMUS, "Zehler, Peter" <PZehler at crt.xerox.com>

                      x.com>                   cc:       ipp at pwg.org,
owner-ipp at pwg.org, sm at pwg.org

                                               Subject:  RE: IPP> "-actual"
multivalue types issue                                                 
                      10/28/02 08:13 AM

 

 




Dennis,
In your example the "-actual" would contain the "sides-actual",
"media-actual" and "SeparatorSheets-actual" attributes.  The
"SeparaterSheets-actual" attributes contains "media" and "sides".  It is
clear and unambiguous what actually occurred.  The "-actual" attributes
carry the same semantic and syntax as the base attributes. Keeping
alignment
between "-actual" and the base attribute will provide significant "Job
Receipt" functionality at a low cost while avoiding additional work for the
printer.  It is easier to simply copy attributes over and change its name
than to also remap its syntax and semantics.
Pete

                                                 Peter Zehler
                                                 XEROX
                                                 Xerox Architecture Center
                                                 Email:
PZehler at crt.xerox.com
                                                 Voice:    (585) 265-8755
                                                 FAX:      (585) 265-8871
                                                 US Mail: Peter Zehler
                                                                     Xerox
Corp.
                                                                     800
Phillips Rd.
                                                                     M/S
128-30E

Webster NY, 14580-9701



-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Carney [mailto:dcarney at us.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:53 AM
To: Zehler, Peter
Cc: ipp at pwg.org; owner-ipp at pwg.org; sm at pwg.org
Subject: Re: IPP> "-actual" multivalue types issue



Peter,

My idea was that since these "-actual" attributes are supposed to tell you
what *actually happened*, they should cover the case where more than one
value was used.

An example: a job is submitted from Windows with a Windows separator page.
The separator page prints from tray 1, blue paper, simplex; the main job
prints from tray 3, white paper, duplex.  Both the media-actual and
sides-actual attributes would have two values.  As it turns out, a
submitting IPP client on Windows (port monitor) can find out from Windows
that the job has a separator page, but has no way to find out from Windows
about media or plex.  Therefore, such a client can interpret the two values
to mean the first is for the separator page, the second is for the job.
This interpretation will be right almost all of the time.

This proposal is supposed to address the "job receipt" shortcoming without
adding a lot of work to the Printer or the standards body :-).  With that
in mind, I could be persuaded to get rid of the multivalued aspect.  But I
think it adds (possibly) significant functionality at a low cost.

Dennis




                      "Zehler, Peter"

                      <PZehler at crt.xero        To:       Dennis
Carney/Boulder/IBM at IBMUS, ipp at pwg.org, sm at pwg.org

                      x.com>                   cc:

                      Sent by:                 Subject:  IPP> "-actual"
multivalue types issue
                      owner-ipp at pwg.org





                      10/24/02 08:56 AM








Dennis,
My first comment is that the data types of the processing attribute should
be the same as the base's.  The base's definition determines if the
semantic
element can be multivalued.  If the base can not be multivalued the actual
should not be either.
Pete

                                                 Peter Zehler
                                                 XEROX
                                                 Xerox Architecture Center
                                                 Email:
PZehler at crt.xerox.com
                                                 Voice:    (585) 265-8755
                                                 FAX:      (585) 265-8871
                                                 US Mail: Peter Zehler
                                                                     Xerox
Corp.
                                                                     800
Phillips Rd.
                                                                     M/S
128-30E

Webster NY, 14580-9701



-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Carney [mailto:dcarney at us.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 1:54 AM
To: ipp at pwg.org; sm at pwg.org
Subject: SM> ACT - IPP "-actual" attributes downloaded, version 0.1


All,

I have downloaded the first draft (version 0.1) of the document 'IPP: "
-actual" attributes extension'.  The document is 12 pages long, but the
proposal is only 5 of those pages.  The document is located at:

ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/ipp/new_ACT/IPP-actual-attributes.doc
ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/ipp/new_ACT/IPP-actual-attributes.pdf

This document will be discussed on the October 31 Semantic Model
teleconference.  Any comments should be sent to the IPP mailing list.

Abstract:
This document defines an extension to the Internet Printing Protocol/1.0
(IPP/1.0) [RFC2566, RFC2565] & IPP/1.1 [RFC2911, RFC2910] for the OPTIONAL
"-actual" set of Job Description attributes that correspond to Job Template
attributes defined in IPP. These "-actual" attributes allow the client to
determine the true results of a print job regardless of what was specified
in the Create-Job or Print-Job operation.

Dennis Carney
IBM Printing Systems












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