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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=ltr align=left> Okay, here's another possibly way-off-center point.    First, apparently I seriously misunderstood the (implied) semantics of the CurrentCharSet and CurrentNaturalLanguage properties.  I apologize.  I assumed (always a bad strategy) that they were global items that could in fact set the default behavior of the management agent.  That is, behavior similar to prtGeneralLocalization, though that does not permit character set and language to vary independently.  <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>  However, I am now really puzzled about a useful interpretation of the meaning of "Current" in these cases.  Two questions.  Easy one first.   <o:p></o:p>  1.  The printer MOF does not specify any read-write access for properties.  The CIM default for this attribute is False.  Should we attempt to correct this?  Do we think that these properties might permit read-write access?  Do we think that any properties in CIM_Printer should permit read-write access?  Such a declaration would be for modeling only; implementations would still get to permit or forbid write access, authorize it, etc.   <o:p></o:p>  2.  Do we think that such properties are global to the management agent or local to a management session?  If two users simultaneously request management information in two different languages (using some protocol mechanism outside these properties), do they see different values of CurrentNaturalLanguage?  And how current is "Current?"  Does the value returned describe the language in which this particular response message is written, or does it refer to a global setting in the printer? <o:p></o:p>  I agree with Ira that the printer current values don't change.  I would not expect any such request to alter the value of CurrentNaturalLanguage.  A deliberate SET operation might alter the value, but only if the property is writable; see question 1.   <o:p></o:p>  Is there a useful interpretation that we can agree on (and then record in text in the new MOF), for the semantics of these properties?  Suggestions: <o:p></o:p>  - A CurrentXxxx property describes the behavior of the management agent for all management request-response exchanges or sessions, unless the request that initiates the session specifies different behavior.   <o:p></o:p>  - A request that specifies different behavior does not change the value of the CurrentXxxx property.   <o:p></o:p>  - The mechanism used by a request to specify different behavior is beyond the scope of this MOF.   <o:p></o:p>  - A CurrentXxxx property may or may not be settable by the end user, as part of management policy.  The MOF declares that the property as modeled may be writable.  Implementations may vary in their ability to write the property, or to authorize writing by consumers, and so forth.   <o:p></o:p>  Would such semantics be useful to write down?  The current MOF doesn't specify the behavior of these properties very clearly.   <o:p></o:p>  If this whole topic is not completely off-base, we could just add it to the list of non-cosmetic questions.   <o:p></o:p>  Sorry for the length.  <o:p></o:p>  rick <o:p></o:p> </DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> </DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> </DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> </DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com] Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 22:26 To: McDonald, Ira; 'wamwagner@comcast.net'; Landau, Richard; wims@pwg.org Cc: Bumpus, Winston Subject: RE: WIMS> CIM> Deprecating (almost) all CurrentXxxx properties in CIM_Printer </DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way, the corresponding IPP Printer attributes are called</DIV> <DIV>'charset-configured' and 'natural-language-configured'.  Given that</DIV> <DIV>IPP and the Printer MIB frequently refer to the 'current configuration',</DIV> <DIV>DMTF CIM property names of 'Current...' are fine if we deprecate</DIV> <DIV>all the other non-deterministic 'CurrentXxx' properties.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV>- Ira</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: owner-wims@pwg.org [mailto:owner-wims@pwg.org]On Behalf Of McDonald, Ira Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:46 PM To: 'wamwagner@comcast.net'; Richard_Landau@Dell.com; wims@pwg.org Cc: Winston_Bumpus@Dell.com Subject: RE: WIMS> CIM> Deprecating (almost) all CurrentXxxx properties in CIM_Printer </DIV> <DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with the proposal.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I strongly DISAGREE with the creation of new DefaultXxx</DIV> <DIV>properties to be used in place of CurrentCharSet/NaturalLanguage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We had this discussion during the development of IPP and concluded</DIV> <DIV>that DefaultXxx has the wrong semantics, because they CANNOT be</DIV> <DIV>overridden by the user.  They are the character set and language</DIV> <DIV>for the values in the Printer Description class of attributes (broadly, </DIV> <DIV>everything except Status attributes).  A specific user can request</DIV> <DIV>a Notification (for example) in a different charset/language, but the</DIV> <DIV>Printer current values don't change.  This is NOT the semantics</DIV> <DIV>of DefaultXxx on a Printer object.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note that the user MUST specify the charset/language of submitted</DIV> <DIV>string attributes with an IPP Job  - it's a protocol error to omit them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV>- Ira</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: owner-wims@pwg.org [mailto:owner-wims@pwg.org]On Behalf Of wamwagner@comcast.net Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:43 PM To: Richard_Landau@Dell.com; wims@pwg.org Cc: Winston_Bumpus@Dell.com Subject: Re: WIMS> CIM> Deprecating (almost) all CurrentXxxx properties in CIM_Printer </DIV> <DIV>Rick,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Makes sense. Perhaps we got carried away in our generalizations and missed the distinction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would see no benefit in changing the names of urrentCharSet or CurrentNaturalLanguage   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bill Wagner</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <META content="MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7232.60" name=Generator> Re: Deprecating (almost) all CurrentXxxx properties in CIM_Printer Slight revision to the proposal:  Deprecate all the CurrentXxxx properties in favor of the corresponding DefaultXxxx properties, except CurrentCharSet and CurrentNaturalLanguage.  These last two properties, CharSet and NaturalLanguage, record the character set and natural language being used for management, not for printing.  They are properties of the printer controller, not properties of print jobs.  Since they are asynchronous with printing functions, they do not suffer from the ambiguities of the other CurrentXxxx properties in complex printers.  Also, neither of these properties has a corresponding DefaultXxxx property.  Therefore these two properties must be retained.  Summary: CurrentPaperType                deprecate; use DefaultPaperType instead CurrentLanguage         deprecate; use DefaultLanguage CurrentMimeType         deprecate; use DefaultMimeType CurrentCapabilities             deprecate; use DefaultCapabilities CurrentCharSet                  retain CurrentNaturalLanguage          retain I recall that some exceptions were mentioned, but I think we all mistakenly referred to CurrentLanguage instead of CurrentCharSet during the discussion.  Addendum to proposal: we could change the *names* of the two remaining CurrentXxxx properties to DefaultCharSet and DefaultNaturalLanguage and then be rid of all the CurrentXxxx properties.  (Actual process: add new properties with identical syntax and semantics but new names, and then deprecate the old properties.)  Only half kidding.  Comments, please.  rick ------------------------- Richard_Landau@dell.com, System Mgt Arch & Stds +1-512-728-9023, One Dell Way, RR5-3 Box 8352, Round Rock, TX 78682 </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>