PMP Mail Archive: RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restru

PMP Mail Archive: RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restru

RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restructured Port MIB (18 Jul y 2005)

From: Mike Fenelon (mfenelon@windows.microsoft.com)
Date: Thu Jul 28 2005 - 11:43:56 EDT

  • Next message: McDonald, Ira: "RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restructured Port MIB (18 Jul y 2005)"

    The oid was only out for a few days. I think it would be much more
    confusing to have a hole for something we took out of a draft, than to
    simply move everything up after deleting the oid.
     
    Mike Fenelon
    Microsoft
     
    ________________________________

    From: pmp-owner@pwg.org [mailto:pmp-owner@pwg.org] On Behalf Of Wijnen,
    Bert (Bert)
    Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:28 AM
    To: McDonald, Ira; 'thrasher@lexmark.com'
    Cc: 'pmp@pwg.org'
    Subject: RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restructured Port MIB (18
    Jul y 2005)
     
    I have not followed detailed discussion on this... but
     
    - SMI rules state that one a document with a MIB is published, you can
    NEVER
      re-use an OID for some other purpose. All you can do is obsolete the
      old object and add a new one.
    - In IETF, when we just have internet drafts, we allow people to re-use
    an OID
      (supposedly no-one has used the OID while at internet draft state,
    besides.
      such MIB modules normally have a
     
         ::= { mib-2 xxxx } -- xxxx to be assigned by IANA
     
      so there is no definite complete OID, and people who want to do early
    implementations
      fill in a number under their enterprise prerelease branch or so.
     
      the final xxxx gets assigned by IANA upon document approval (right
    before RFC
      publication) and so no OID changes are allowed anymore.
      See the SMI documents for the rationale.
     
    - But once published as RFC, we never re-use an OID, not even when a new
    rev is
      being published as a intrenet-draft.
     
    Hope this helps,
     
    Bert
            -----Original Message-----
            From: pmp-owner@pwg.org [mailto:pmp-owner@pwg.org]On Behalf Of
    McDonald, Ira
            Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 16:59
            To: 'thrasher@lexmark.com'; McDonald, Ira
            Cc: 'pmp@pwg.org'
            Subject: RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restructured Port
    MIB (18 Jul y 2005)
            Hi Jerry,
             
            There's no such thing as a reserved no-access object, but I'd be
    happy to leave
            the hole (so that the OIDs don't change for any other columnar
    objects). Would
            you prefer that?
             
            Note that ALL of the columnar objects were cleaned up and
    reordered (and
            renumbered) in this latest revision, so it would be hard for
    there to be too many
            implementations of the new OIDs already.
             
            Others - shall I leave the hole and leave the other new OID
    assignments stable?
             
            Cheers,
            - Ira
             
            Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
            Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
            PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
            phone: +1-906-494-2434
            email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: thrasher@lexmark.com [mailto:thrasher@lexmark.com]
                    Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:33 AM
                    To: McDonald, Ira
                    Subject: RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled]
    Restructured Port MIB (18 Jul y 2005)
                    
                    Ira,
                    
                    Are you just planning on creating a reserved no-access
    object where ppmPortEnabled "used" to be, or are
                    you going to delete the entry and shift everything else
    in the table up.??
                    
                    Jerry
                    
                    
     
    "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com>
    07/23/2005 01:56 PM
            
            To: "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com>,
    "'thrasher@lexmark.com'" <thrasher@lexmark.com>
            cc: "'pmp@pwg.org'" <pmp@pwg.org>,
    "'Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com'" <Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com>
            Subject: RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restructured
    Port MIB (18 Jul y 2005)
                    
                    
                    
                    Hi,
                    
                    Let's delete ppmPrinterEnabled, because the 'false' is
    redundant
                    with ppmPortEnabled of 'false' for all supported ports.
    And
                    because otherwise, we must say "ignore ppmPortEnabled of
    'true'
                    for installation if ppmPrinterEnabled is 'false'".
    Which leads
                    me to agree that we should delete ppmPrinterEnabled.
                    
                    When a Printer is permanently removed from an ENA
    interface,
                    the whole ppmPrinterTable row and all subordinate rows
    in
                    ppmPortTable can just be deleted.
                    
                    For 'ppmPortProtocolType' using 'PrtChannelTypeTC',
    we're working
                    to get 'unknown(2)' registered quickly with IANA, so
    that we can
                    do the 'right thing' that Bert Wijnen pointed out.
                    
                    Cheers,
                    - Ira
                    
                    Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
                    Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
                    PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
                    phone: +1-906-494-2434
                    email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: McDonald, Ira
                    Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 1:37 PM
                    To: 'thrasher@lexmark.com'; McDonald, Ira
                    Cc: pmp@pwg.org; Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com
                    Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005)
                    
                    
                    Hi Jerry,
                    
                    I agree that feedback from the clients (Microsoft and
    Apple) on how they'd
                    like this to work would be helpful.
                    
                    Remember, that a value of 'ppmPrinterIndex' must NEVER
    be reassigned
                    to a different instance of a Printer at a later date.
    While the MIB may
                    grow and shrink, the base 'ppmPrinterIndex' should be
    immutably
                    associated with exactly one specific instance of a
    Printer. This is both
                    correct MIB practice and required by the object
    definition in the current
                    MIB draft.
                    
                    Cheers,
                    - Ira
                    
                    Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
                    Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
                    PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
                    phone: +1-906-494-2434
                    email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: thrasher@lexmark.com [mailto:thrasher@lexmark.com]
                    Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 1:28 PM
                    To: McDonald, Ira
                    Cc: pmp@pwg.org; Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com
                    Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005)
                    
                    
                    
                    I would think that the usefullness of the
    ppmPrinterEnabled for an
                    ENA would only be for the "transcient" case of the
    plugging/unplugging
                    of the related printer. However at some point (in the
    case that the printer
                    
                    stays unplugged "permanently") the printer entry and
    associated protocol
                    tables would be removed such that the the MIB could grow
    and shrink
                    over time.....
                    
                    For example, an ENA with a USB host interface that
    supports up to
                    128 attached printers, In my opinion, shouldn't need to
    have 128 printer
                    entries
                    in the MIB tables from first power on......only the
    entries that have
                    detected (valid 1284ID)
                    printers etc. attached.....otherwise you'd end up in
    most cases with 127
                    default printer entries
                    with associated port tables that don't actually go
    anywhere.
                    
                    Of course this behaviour is different from the current
    TCPMON.ini file
                    which has static entries.......
                    
                    I think maybe the clients should give guidance on how
    they want it to work.
                    
                    Jerry Thrasher
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com>
                    Sent by: pmp-owner@pwg.org
                    07/22/2005 12:13 PM
                    
                    To: "'Bergman, Ron'"
    <Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com>, "McDonald,
                    Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com>, "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)"
    <bwijnen@lucent.com>,
                    pmp@pwg.org
                    cc:
                    Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July
    2005)
                    
                    
                    
                    Hi Ron,
                    
                    If the Printer entry is deleted when an ENA interface
                    is disconnected, then all the subordinate Port entries
                    MUST be deleted too (because they are indexed by the
                    object ppmPrinterIndex). This is ugly if the local
                    printer is promptly plugged _back_ into the interface.
                    
                    If the Printer entry is left in place but _not_ clearly
                    marked 'disabled', then ppmPrinterIEEE1284DeviceId,
                    ppmPrinterHrDeviceIndex and all the other Printer
                    columnar objects must be reset (to default values).
                    
                    That's why the ppmPrinterEnabled object should be kept.
                    
                    The WG concensus was strong that ppmPortEnabled was
                    required to keep the port list static (fixed number
                    of ports for an interface). Therefore, I added the
                    ppmPrinterEnabled object.
                    
                    If others want ppmPrinterEnabled removed, would they
                    please speak up soon?
                    
                    Cheers,
                    - Ira
                    
                    PS - Remember that this MIB is supposed to work for
                    Network Spoolers too, where the concept of 'the printer
                    is removed' is fuzzy. The 'printer' is just some
                    configured downstream network printer that may well
                    be administratively disabled _without_ removing the
                    configuration at the Network Spooler.
                    
                    Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
                    Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
                    PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
                    phone: +1-906-494-2434
                    email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
                    
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Bergman, Ron [mailto:Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com]
    > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:24 PM
    > To: McDonald, Ira; Wijnen, Bert (Bert); pmp@pwg.org
    > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005)
    >
    >
    > Ira,
    >
    > Base on my experience with ENAs, they do not provide a
    feature to
    > disable an output port unless the printer is removed.
    Normally,
    > this is to replace a worn-out unit or upgrade a
    printer.
    > In this case the old printer is gone forever. So how
    does your
    > "STATIC entries" handle this situation?
    >
    > Ron
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com]
    > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 8:38 AM
    > To: Bergman, Ron; McDonald, Ira; Wijnen, Bert (Bert);
    pmp@pwg.org
    > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005)
    >
    >
    > Hi Ron,
    >
    > Based on previous IPP experience, it will take MONTHS
    to add one
    > new enum to the PrtChannelTypeTC with IANA - that
    would stop the
    > Port Mon MIB dead in its tracks until it was accepted
    by IANA.
    >
    > About ppmPrinterEnabled - same rationale as
    ppmPortEnabled - keeps
    > the number of Printer entries STATIC in an
    implementation - lets
    > the user see that the one Printer (i.e., hardward
    output interface)
    > on an External Network Adapter should presently be
    ignored.
    >
    > Remember that the Port Mon MIB MUST NOT depend on
    either Host
    > Resources or Printer MIB, by common concensus - it may
    only
    > AUGMENT them, if they are present.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > - Ira
    >
    > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
    > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
    > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
    > phone: +1-906-494-2434
    > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
    >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: Bergman, Ron
    [mailto:Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com]
    > > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:40 PM
    > > To: McDonald, Ira; Wijnen, Bert (Bert); pmp@pwg.org
    > > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July
    2005)
    > >
    > >
    > > Ira,
    > >
    > > I am not sure what value ppmPrinterEnabled adds to
    the MIB.
    > > This appears to be analogous to
    > > On Line/Off Line. If I want to create a driver for
    the
    > > printer I don't care what the current
    > > state is. That information is only necessary when I
    am ready
    > > to print and then this MIB is
    > > not used.
    > >
    > > I believe that Bert has a valid point in using
    > > ppmPortProtocolType. It is not a major effort
    > > to add unknown(2) to the IANA registrations.
    > >
    > > Otherwise, the changes are inline with our
    discussions
    > > following the test.
    > >
    > > Ron
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: pmp-owner@pwg.org [mailto:pmp-owner@pwg.org]On
    Behalf
    > > Of McDonald,
    > > Ira
    > > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:46 AM
    > > To: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; McDonald, Ira;
    'pmp@pwg.org'
    > > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July
    2005)
    > >
    > >
    > > Hi Bert,
    > >
    > > Thanks for your quick feedback. My replies inline
    below.
    > >
    > > Cheers,
    > > - Ira
    > >
    > >
    > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
    > > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
    > > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839
    > > phone: +1-906-494-2434
    > > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com
    > >
    > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > From: Wijnen, Bert (Bert)
    [mailto:bwijnen@lucent.com]
    > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:08 AM
    > > > To: McDonald, Ira; 'pmp@pwg.org'
    > > > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July
    2005)
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Only did a very very quick scan.
    > > >
    > > > Comments.
    > > >
    > > > - ppmPortProtocolTargetPort OBJECT-TYPE
    > > > SYNTAX Integer32 (0..65535)
    > > > I propose that you use InetPortNumber TC from
    RFC4001
    > > >
    > >
    > > Won't work, because this port is not limited to
    Internet Suite
    > > protocols. The 'service:' URI in
    ppmPortServiceNameOrURI may
    > > also be for non-Internet suites (AppleTalk, NetWare,
    etc.).
    > >
    > > I'll correct the DESCRIPTION in the MIB and make
    clear that
    > > (as with the Printer MIB) ports/channels may be from
    multiple
    > > protocol suites.
    > >
    > >
    > > > - ppmPortProtocolType OBJECT-TYPE
    > > > SYNTAX Integer32 (0..2147483647)
    > > >
    > > > WHy not use TC PrtChannelTypeTC as the SYNTAX?
    > > > I do see that you want to use zero (meaning not
    supported).
    > > > But maybe better is to use none(1) in that case,
    or maybe
    > > > adding an enumeration to the TC of
    notSupported(xx) ??
    > > > It is now an IANA-maintained TC, so it should
    not be that
    > > > difficult to get a label added.
    > > >
    > >
    > > Won't work. PrtChannelTypeTC currently only defines
    'other(1)'
    > > and (foolishly) does NOT define 'unknown(2)' (unlike
    every other
    > > textual convention in the Printer MIB). Because the
    Printer MIB
    > > v2 still doesn't define DEFVAL clauses for most
    objects, this
    > > oversight has not surfaced before. We could
    register 'unknown(2)'
    > > with IANA, but _not_ fast enough (because this MIB's
    going into OS
    > > and printer vendor products right now).
    > >
    > >
    > > > - ppmPortPrtChannelIndex has a reference to
    RFC1213, while I
    > > > think I would reather reference RFC2863 (the
    current IF-MIB)
    > > >
    > > > Bert
    > > >
    > >
    > > Agreed. My mistake from the old Printer MIB (RFC
    1759).
    > >
    > > I'll correct the references in the MIB.
    > > - Ira
    > >
    >



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