attachment
<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Hi Mike and Soma,<br><br></div>You're both right of course (about validity assumptions and not changing<br></div>conformance requirements by making a new REQUIRED).<br><br></div>
I'd be happy to promote "printer-current-time" to RECOMMENDED<br>
</div>(in errata specs). In retrospect, I wish we had done it in IPP/2.0 SE.<br><br></div><div>I think that the Implementor's Guide should address the issue of validity<br></div><div>assumptions (e.g., recommend that Printers SHOULD NOT implement <br>
any attribute for which they can only support 'no-value'). <br><br>Note that the PWG Common Log (for Syslog, PWG 5110.3) follows <br>Syslog and makes accurate date/time REQUIRED in audit logs.<br><br></div><div>
Cheers,<br></div><div>- Ira<br><br></div><div><br></div><div>
<br></div><div><br><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG<br>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br><a style="color:rgb(51,51,255)" href="http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br>
<a style="color:rgb(102,0,204)" href="http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><br>mailto: <a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
Winter 579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176 734-944-0094<br>Summer PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 906-494-2434<br><br><div style="display:inline"></div><div style="display:inline"></div><div style="display:inline"></div>
<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Michael Sweet <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:msweet@apple.com" target="_blank">msweet@apple.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Ira,<div><br></div><div>Given that it changes the conformance requirements, I don't think it can be done as an errata. However, we *could* make it RECOMMENDED (much like we did when we published IPP/2.0 Second Edition for a number of attributes...)</div>
<div><br></div><div>But we should definitely add this to the list of future changes for IPP Everywhere 2.0 / IPP Multifunction.</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On May 21, 2014, at 9:22 AM, Ira McDonald <<a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi Mike and Soma,<br><br></div>Then I maintain that it's an error in IPP Everywhere, FaxOut, and Scan,<br>that the underlying "printer-current-time" (OPTIONAL in RFC 2911 and<br>
</div>in IPP/2.0 Second Edition) is not moved to REQUIRED. I consider it<br>an editorial error (i.e., fixable by an errata) as it's an oversight.<br><br></div>Cheers,<br></div>- Ira<br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG<br>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br><a style="color:rgb(51,51,255)" href="http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br>
<a style="color:rgb(102,0,204)" href="http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><br>mailto: <a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
Winter 579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176 <a href="tel:734-944-0094" value="+17349440094" target="_blank">734-944-0094</a><br>Summer PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 <a href="tel:906-494-2434" value="+19064942434" target="_blank">906-494-2434</a><br>
<br><div style="display:inline"></div><div style="display:inline"></div><div style="display:inline"></div>
<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Michael Sweet <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:msweet@apple.com" target="_blank">msweet@apple.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Soma,<div><br></div><div>This is indeed something that needs to be documented in the implementor's guide, but in most cases the client just needs to see whether the date/time (or simply the up time in seconds) is different than last reported, and not if the change is newer.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But given that the printer-xxx-change-date-time attributes are required in IPP Everywhere, I think we still want them required for IPP Scan.</div><div><br></div><div><div><div><br><div><div>
On May 20, 2014, at 11:09 PM, Soma Meiyappan <<a href="mailto:Soma.Meiyappan@conexant.com" target="_blank">Soma.Meiyappan@conexant.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hi Ira,<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thank you very much for the summary from the F2F discussions on this topic.
<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">My question on the topic for FaxOut stems from the imaginable ways an IPP client may have been written to be dependent on printer-config-change-date-time for
caching printer confifuation and if it is a value that may be treated as trusted enough for that purpose. I am aware that ‘no-value’ is valid for these attributes (incl printer-current-time); but I am concerned about other valid (but inaccurate) dateTime
values and the implications.<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If ‘printer-config-change-date-time’ is used purely for informational purposes (as a value to display in a report or a web-page and not necessarily in caching
the printer configuration), I’ll not be too concerned. However, could it be used to determine if cached information about the printer needs to be refreshed? If yes, we may want to add a note targeted at IPP client writers, in the implementer’s guide, that
this information MUST not be used for caching printer capabilities without other precautions including protection against the possibility of the printer reported time being inaccurate [RFC 2911 does not place any accuracy requirements] and printer-current-time
(and derived attribute values) going back to the past for a number of reasons. <u></u>
<u></u></span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Looking forward to hearing the forum’s thoughts on the topic.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks and Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Somasundaram.<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br>
</div><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Ira McDonald [<a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 19, 2014 11:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Soma Meiyappan; Ira McDonald; Peter Zehler<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:IPP@pwg.org" target="_blank">IPP@pwg.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [IPP] WG Last Call of IPP Scan Service specification<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Soma,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your careful reading of these IPP specs.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">We discussed this comment during the Thursday IPP WG session
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">at the PWG F2F meeting last week, when looking at IPP Scan with<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Pete Zehler.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">The IPP F2F minutes state that this issue should be resolved on the
<br>
IPP mailing list, but there was unanimous consensus in the meeting:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">(1) IPP FaxOut - these date-time attributes should remain REQUIRED<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">(because they satisfy regulatory requirements for a Fax service).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>
(2) IPP Scan - these date-time attributes should be changed to either<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">RECOMMENDED (i.e., best practice) or simply OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Please note that in IPP Everywhere (PWG 5100.14), the attributes<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">printer-config-change-date-time and printer-state-change-date-time<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">attributes are REQUIRED in Table 6 for conformance (see notes 2<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">and 3 below the table).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Obviously, the underlying printer-date-time attribute should have<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">the same conformance level as the change-xxx attributes in IPP
<br>
Everywhere, IPP FaxOut, and IPP Scan. This appears to me to<br>
be an oversight in these specs.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Please comment further on this thread, to clarify your thoughts.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">- Ira (co-chair of IPP WG)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG<br>
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" target="_blank"><span style="color:#3333ff">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</span></a><br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc" target="_blank"><span style="color:#6600cc">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</span></a><br>
mailto: <a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
Winter 579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176 <a href="tel:734-944-0094" value="+17349440094" target="_blank">734-944-0094</a><br>
Summer PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 <a href="tel:906-494-2434" value="+19064942434" target="_blank">906-494-2434</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 10:34 PM, Soma Meiyappan <<a href="mailto:Soma.Meiyappan@conexant.com" target="_blank">Soma.Meiyappan@conexant.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Hi Pete et al,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I have a concern about</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">printer-config-change-date-time </span><u></u><u></u></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">printer-state-change-date-time </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">These attributes figure in the REQUIRED table in section 4.3. The above attributes require the scan device to have a notion of wall clock time (whether
it is accurate or not to the global wall clock time). To increase the chances of making use of that effectively & correctly, all clients would be required to use this somehow in reference to printer-current-time and not to the wall-clock time that the client
might know through other sources. That makes me wonder if it is sufficient to have printer-state-change-time and printer-config-change-time as required and make xxxx-date-time as optional.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I have a similar question on FaxOut; but at least on FaxOut, the devices are expected to have a notion of wall-clock time although the point about how
clients should use that information with reference to printer-current-time still seems applicable.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Somasundaram.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:ipp-bounces@pwg.org" target="_blank">ipp-bounces@pwg.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ipp-bounces@pwg.org" target="_blank">ipp-bounces@pwg.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zehler, Peter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 09, 2014 10:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:IPP@pwg.org" target="_blank">IPP@pwg.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [IPP] WG Last Call of IPP Scan Service specification<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">All,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">This message initiates the IPP Working Group last call of the IPP Scan Service<span style="color:#1f497d">
</span>specification updated per prototype experience and subsequent discussions.
<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/ipp/wd/wd-ippscan10-20140509.pdf" target="_blank">ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/ipp/wd/wd-ippscan10-20140509.pdf</a> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/ipp/wd/wd-ippscan10-20140509.pdf" target="_blank">http://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/ipp/wd/wd-ippscan10-20140509.pdf</a><span style="color:#1f497d">
</span> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Please send all feedback to the IPP mailing list (reply-all works fine for this) and it will be collected and processed as quickly as possible.
<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Our intent is to move IPP Scan Service<span style="color:#1f497d">
</span>to PWG Formal Vote before the August 2014 F2F.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Impact","sans-serif";color:navy">Peter Zehler</span><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Xerox Research Center Webster<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Email:
<a href="mailto:Peter.Zehler@Xerox.com" target="_blank">Peter.Zehler@Xerox.com</a></span><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Voice:
<a href="tel:%28585%29%20265-8755" target="_blank">(585) 265-8755</a></span><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">FAX:
<a href="tel:%28585%29%20265-7441" target="_blank">(585) 265-7441</a></span><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">US Mail: Peter Zehler</span><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Xerox Corp.</span><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">800 Phillips Rd.</span><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">M/S 128-25E</span><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Webster NY, 14580-9701</span><span style="color:#1f497d">
</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ipp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:ipp@pwg.org" target="_blank">ipp@pwg.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.pwg.org/mailman/listinfo/ipp" target="_blank">https://www.pwg.org/mailman/listinfo/ipp</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div><div><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:'Andale Mono';font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:'Andale Mono';font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
_________________________________________________________<br>Michael Sweet, Senior Printing System Engineer, PWG Chair</div></span></span>
</div>
<br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Andale Mono';font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Andale Mono';font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
_________________________________________________________<br>Michael Sweet, Senior Printing System Engineer, PWG Chair</div></span></span>
</div>
<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>