attachment-0001
Hi,<br><br>Jerry - to address your specific concerns:<br><br>(1) Currently IANA Printer MIB includes<br> - langPCL(3)<br> - langHPGL(4)<br> - langPJL(5)<br> - langPS(6)<br> - langPCLXL(47)<br> - langPDF(54)<br>
<br>(2) IANA is very responsive (days) about<br>registering new values, so adding (for<br>example) langPDFis, langPS2, langPDF4, <br>etc., is feasible and practical.<br><br>I suggest that registering new values with<br>IANA is preferable to a (probably not<br>
interoperable) optional use of version<br>suffixes.<br><br>I agree that the Genuine versus Emulation<br>issue is important for product claims and <br>for customers - I just don't think we should<br>try to shoehorn it into IEEE 1284 Device ID.<br>
<br>Bill - due to repeated changes of our mail<br>server, PWG Steering Committee decided <br>several years ago to only put this generic <br>reference to mailing list subscription info<br>in our specs:<br><br> <a href="http://www.pwg.org/mailhelp.html">http://www.pwg.org/mailhelp.html</a><br>
<br>Cheers,<br>- Ira<br><br clear="all">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Co-Chair - TCG Hardcopy WG<br>IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br>
email: <a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>winter:<br> 579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176<br> 734-944-0094<br>summer:<br> PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839<br> 906-494-2434<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Jerry Thrasher <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thrasher@lexmark.com">thrasher@lexmark.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">Re the questions that were raised (not
to the point of last call comments but I guess they should be discussed)</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">The question about distinguishing the
difference between an Emulation and "Genuine" is not a concern</font>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">about interoperability, but if there
is a legal requirement to make the distinction. We are checking on the
</font>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">history of this "requirement"
internally, if others on the list have an opinion, please share.</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">The question about distinguishing versions
of PDLs really comes down to the user experience, and if </font>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">the potential interoperability issues
are acceptable to those who want to parse the string. I'd like to hear</font>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">Mike Sweet's take on this. Specific
examples of this are fairly easy to cite.</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">(If a device only supports PCL 3, but
simply advertizes PCL, and is sent a PCL 5 or 6 job that uses HP-GL2 from
the host, </font>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">there will be interoperability problems)</font>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">(Another variant on the versioning issues
is if a device only supports PDF I/S, and only advertizes PDF, and is sent
PDF V4, </font>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">there may be memory issues with processing
the job.)</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">A very quick scan of vendor web pages
and their claimed PDL support .</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">Lower end inkjet printers and MFDs support,
HP PCL 3 GUI, HP PCL 3 Enhanced</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">Lower end lasers that support "standard
PDLs" support, Postscript 3, PCL 6, PCL 5e</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">(Sample from four different vendor web
sites, all with list prices under $300.00 USD)</font>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2"><br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">_____________________________________</font>
<p></p><div class="im"><img src="cid:_1_071A7034071A6EEC00548074852576B9" alt="LEXMARK"><font color="#666666" face="Century Gothic" size="2"> </font><font color="#666666" face="Century Gothic" size="2"><b><br>
Jerry Thrasher</b></font><font color="#666666" face="Century Gothic" size="2"><br>
Senior Engineer, WW Corporate Standards<br>
C14/082-1, 740 New Circle Rd, Lexington Ky 40550<br>
Office: +1 859 825 4056 Fax: +1 859 232 7628<br>
thrasher(at)lexmark(dot)com</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td width="40%"><div class="im"><font face="sans-serif" size="1"><b>"William Wagner"
<<a href="mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net" target="_blank">wamwagner@comcast.net</a>></b> </font>
</div><p><font face="sans-serif" size="1">01/27/2010 09:01 PM</font>
</p></td><td width="59%">
<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">To</font></div>
</td><td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">"'Ira McDonald'" <<a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a>></font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">cc</font></div>
</td><td><font face="sans-serif" size="1"><<a href="mailto:wims@pwg.org" target="_blank">wims@pwg.org</a>>, "'Jerry Thrasher'"
<<a href="mailto:thrasher@lexmark.com" target="_blank">thrasher@lexmark.com</a>></font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">Subject</font></div>
</td><td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">RE: [PDL versions?] PWG last call -
Command Set Format - IEEE1284 Device
ID -25 Feb 2010</font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<table>
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td>
</td><td></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br></td></tr></tbody></table><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<br>
<br>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4">Hi Ira,</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4"> </font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4">Understood … but I believe
it is more polite to ask permission before posting to the list emails sent
privately.</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4"> </font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4">I simply suggested that,
to satisfy the requirements you listed in the document, it is necessary
to be able to understand what the PDL is, and because there are differences
in emulations and versions, it may be necessary that the reader be aware
of the emulation or version. If there is no way of providing this
information, then interpreter either has to deal with a PDL that is not
quite what it says it is, or it has another private PDL to accommodate.
In either case, the underlying objective of the specification is compromised.
Currently, although the string may not be as machine readable as desired,
that information about version and emulation is available.</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4"> </font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4">I believe that these are
valid points to be considered both by printer manufacturers and those reading
the string. It may well be that, rather than provide incomplete information,
it would be better to use the current approach.</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4"> </font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4">Bill Wagner</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="4"> </font>
<br><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Ira McDonald [mailto:<a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a>]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:13 PM<b><br>
To:</b> William Wagner; Ira McDonald<b><br>
Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:wims@pwg.org" target="_blank">wims@pwg.org</a>; Jerry Thrasher<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [PDL versions?] PWG last call - Command Set Format - IEEE1284
Device ID -25 Feb 2010</font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Hi Bill,<br>
<br>
[please read the mail headers in this thread]<br>
<br>
I already PUT it on the WIMS WG mailing list - because ALL<br>
PWG Last Call comments are supposed to be publicly posted <br>
and archived.<br>
<br>
I do not find any basis for document format variants in the<br>
requirements you quoted.<br>
<br>
And the basic method (using Printer MIB enum labels) has<br>
been unchanged (and unchallenged) ever since Mike Sweet<br>
originally proposed this standard at the Open Printing Summit<br>
in Montreal in fall 2007 and the PWG SC agreed to look into<br>
it (i.e., it became my long-standing action item).<br>
<br>
This interoperable labeling of document format variants (which<br>
is NOT possible in Printer MIB) is a major new requirement.<br>
<br>
Allowing document format variant labeling may be possible<br>
with some suffix syntax, but *interoperable* document format <br>
variant labeling is simply impossible. <br>
<br>
Vendors don't currently use the same version numbers to <br>
mean the same thing, and it's way out-of-scope for this <br>
specification to solve *that* problem.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
- Ira<br>
<br>
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Hardcopy WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br>
email: </font><a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><u>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</u></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><br>
winter:<br>
579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176<br>
734-944-0094<br>
summer:<br>
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839<br>
906-494-2434<br>
</font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 5:41 PM,
William Wagner <</font><a href="mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net" target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><u>wamwagner@comcast.net</u></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">>
wrote:</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4">Do either of you
object if we put this on the PMP/WIMS mailing list and include it in the
face-to-face discussion?</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4">With respect to Ira’s
comments, one may argue that design requirements 5-7</font>
<div>
<p><font face="Symbol" size="3">·</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">should
support automatic device driver installation by client and server operating
systems (see section 3.2).</font>
</p><p><font face="Symbol" size="3">·</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">should
support interoperable advertising of implemented document formats by network
spoolers and network Printers (see sections 3.1 and 3.2).</font>
</p><p><font face="Symbol" size="3">·</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">should
support interoperable discovery of available document formats by Imaging
Clients and Imaging Servers (see sections 3.1 and 3.2).</font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">would suggest a document format
method that did distinguish between variations on a language without the
need for creating a slew of vendor-specific language identifications.
</font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">Thanks,</font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">Bill Wagner</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><b>From:</b> Ira McDonald [mailto:</font><a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><u>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</u></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="2">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:29 PM<b><br>
To:</b> William Wagner; </font><a href="mailto:wims@pwg.org" target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><u>wims@pwg.org</u></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="2">;
Ira McDonald<b><br>
Cc:</b> Jerry Thrasher<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [PDL versions?] PWG last call - Command Set Format - IEEE1284
Device ID -25 Feb 2010</font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Hi Jerry,<br>
<br>
The short answers to your questions are:<br>
<br>
(1) Distinguishing Emulation from Genuine was not a<br>
design objective.<br>
<br>
(2) Distinguishing PDL versions was also not a design<br>
objective (or plausibly interoperable).<br>
- The use and misuse of the corresponding version<br>
elements in the Printer MIB v1/v2 prtInterpreterTable<br>
is a hopeless mess.<br>
- Nobody was willing to let the editors to address this<br>
when we did Printer MIB v2.<br>
<br>
So, inserting version information may work for a given<br>
vendor, but completely breaks interoperability across<br>
different spoolers and OS environments.<br>
<br>
We could perhaps introduce a syntax for version<br>
suffixes, but the chances that vendors will correctly<br>
implement it seems very unlikely.<br>
<br>
Bearing in mind the machine-readability imperative,<br>
do you have an interoperable version suffix format<br>
to propose? <br>
<br>
Or an interoperable Emulation versus Genuine suffix<br>
format?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
- Ira (1284 Cmd Set editor)<br>
<br>
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Hardcopy WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br>
email: </font><a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><u>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</u></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><br>
winter:<br>
579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176<br>
734-944-0094<br>
summer:<br>
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839<br>
906-494-2434</font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:58 AM,
William Wagner <</font><a href="mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net" target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><u>wamwagner@comcast.net</u></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">>
wrote:</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4">Hi Jerry,</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4">I am sending your
questions onto Ira. I think your two points are very good ones.
My take on them:</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4">The spec allows for
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">PrtInterpreterLangFamilyTC,
mime-media-type, and </font><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4">Private
type designations. </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">PrtInterpreterLangFamilyTC
does not provide for version and emulation variations; mime-types for all
of the variations do not exist, and would be cumbersome if they were to
be all registered; and having applications understand the difference between
private types is unrealistic.</font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">The intent is machine identification
of the command language. Just indicating (by an appropriate means… placing
“emulation” after the designation does not appear consistent with
the spec) that a pdl is an emulation warns the interpreter that there
may be differences from the defined set, but these will likely be different
from one emulation to another. I think the best approach depends on how
good the emulation is (as an emulation, not as a PDL). But, barring having
to define and designate each emulation as a separate PDL, there might
be some benefit in somehow flagging that a PDL might deviate somewhat from
the defined language.</font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">Major Version differences are likely
more drastic, more likely to be independently defined and since there
should be fewer of them that possible emulations, more amenable to being
listed as separate MIB or MIME types. That is, there is little advantage
in knowing the language is up-version (other than expecting differences)
unless the interpreter knows what the differences are. To be able to do
this, the version and its definitive reference should be identified in
a standard way. The problem then, of course, is who is going to register
these versions.</font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">Thanks for the input.</font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">Bill Wagner</font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
<br><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="4"> </font>
</p><p>
</p><table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td width="23%"><font face="Times New Roman" size="1"><b>Jerry Thrasher/Lex/Lexmark</b></font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">01/27/2010 09:07 AM</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p></td><td width="76%">
<br>
<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td width="6%">
<div align="right"><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">To</font></div>
</td><td width="93%"><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">"William Wagner"
<</font><a href="mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net" target="_blank"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="1"><u>wamwagner@comcast.net</u></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">></font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">cc</font></div>
</td><td>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">Subject</font></div>
</td><td><font face="Times New Roman" size="1">Re: [Pwg-Announce] PWG last call
- Command Set Format - IEEE1284 Device ID -25
Feb 2010</font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
<p>
<br>
</p><table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td width="50%">
</td><td width="50%"></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
Bill,</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> <br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
A couple of questions have come up with respect to what's really required
to be done and what</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
can be done with respect to two particular issues.</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
1. The percieve requirement for not confusing PDL emulation with "true"
PDL support</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
Example, Postscript Emulation vs. Adobe PostScript and PCL Emulation vs.
HP PCL support.</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
2. The need for the ability for versioning of the various PDLs.</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
PCL 6 is very different from PCL 3 (most low end inkjet printers still
support only PCL 3, the first</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
PCL to support color).</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> <br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
So here's what I'm talking about from a real string.</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
Example:</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
If the current CMD string is:</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
COMMAND SET:PCL 6 Emulation, PostScript Level 3 Emulation, NPAP, PJL;</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
Would a compliant string simply be:</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
COMMAND SET:PCL,PS,PCL 6 Emulation, PostScript Level 3 Emulation, NPAP,
PJL;</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><br>
_____________________________________ </font>
</p><p><img src="cid:_1_05FC53B405FC510C00548074852576B9" alt="LEXMARK"><font color="#666666" face="Times New Roman" size="2"> <b><br>
Jerry Thrasher</b><br>
Senior Engineer, WW Corporate Standards<br>
C14/082-1, 740 New Circle Rd, Lexington Ky 40550<br>
Office: +1 859 825 4056 Fax: +1 859 232 7628<br>
thrasher(at)lexmark(dot)com</font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
<br><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
<br></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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