In some of the limited discussion about the workshop on the CSS mailing
list, which is how I learned about the upcoming workshop back in July, the
Adobe representative to the CSS workgroup mentioned that they felt PDF was
the best option to consider as a first step towards bringing something into
being quickly that would start the W3C down the road towards the long term
I think their opinion aligns well with Bill's point a) below.
TCS - Tykodi Consulting Services LLC
E-mail: ptykodi at tykodi.com
From: sm3-bounces at pwg.org [mailto:sm3-bounces at pwg.org] On Behalf Of William
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:49 PM
To: 'Semantic Model 3.0 Workgroup discussion list'
Subject: Re: [SM3] Informal minutes of W3C Workshop conference call
Comments and questions for Thursday's call. I preface some of these
statements by affirming that printing from the Web is not in the area of my
expertise, so that some of my questions, indeed some of my comments, may be
way off-base. In such case, I request (gentle) correction and redirection.
1. I understand that, in France, everyone is on vacation for the month of
August. That seems to be the case with the W3C workshop personnel since the
announcement of Agenda, posting of position papers and, it appears, method
of registering the restricted number of attendees has not yet occurred (so
far as I can see). Information from Paul is that the agenda "has very few
position papers being presented, but some panels and open discussion" I do
not expect that the PWG will need to present its position paper, largely
because we propose an important component of any overall solution to the
"The Challenge" (namely a set of elements for defining user processing
intent in printing products) rather than a specific solution itself.
However, I echo a previously stated suggestion that it would be beneficial
to create and post a concise statement of the purpose and importance of the
Semantic Model and of the PWG Job Ticket that emerges from that model.
Indeed, I suggest that, in this period of realistically considering out
projects, such a statement would be of interest to much of the membership
2. Referring to the information on the W3C workshop page:
"Designers are finding HTML and CSS incomplete when compared
to XML and XSL-FO, and that in turn is limiting compared to professional
interactive page design programs.", questions and comments are:
a) Although I understand their publishing-based origin in SGML, one
thinks of HTML (and XML) being used in web pages. I expect that a
stand-alone or web-based word processor could provide a document coded in
HTML with CSS reflecting formatting, or in XML with XSL providing
formatting, but what is the advantage over PDF or XPS in which many of the
features they ask for already exist? To what extent is HTML or XML currently
in use for commercial publishing of printed material?
b) The PWG has some history with CSS-Print (which was intended to be
used with XHTML-Print). Presumably XHTML-Print was to describe a document's
content and structure; CSS-Print was to describe processing and presumably
could be changed without affecting content. Of course, processing
instructions often affect formatting, so a clear distinction is not
possible. It appears that XSL (or XSL-FO) serves a function for XLM coded
documents similar to what CSS serve for HTML coded documents.
c) A reasonable PWG position would not limit the PWG contribution to
defining a set of print processing elements in CSS, but also for XSL-FO (or
whatever other content language/formatting pair are proposed. The problem is
when existing elements in those languages do not align with PWG PJT
elements. Finding those may not be feasible in available time.
3. Topics (and presumably panels, sessions, etc) identified that may be of
interest to PWG for contribution and/or understanding are:
. Formatting to print using CSS
. Print on demand: color management, ink control [?], specifying
media, binding, trimming, finishing, and perhaps
. Multiple output formats: are CSS media queries enough? What about
alternate content, image replacement, subsetting?
(I am surprised there is no XSL-FO session)
1. Are there any others?
2. What is meant by "subsetting"?
3. Are we interested (perhaps particularly for Print on Demand) in
proposing something other than XML or HTML as the content language, or an
4. If, as the page suggests, "Customers want to buy a printed book, or
to go to a kiosk and get an eBook printed and have the same quality.", how
do we propose print process control with documents in the various E-book
5. Do we have any suggestions on 'Rights Tracking"?
Thanks for plowing though my (partial) dump on this. I think we do need to
generate and post something that can be referred to as truly representing
the PWG position. (We might clean up the posted PJT candidate spec too, if
we want to refer to it.a few little things like status and line numbering).
I should better understand where this W3C group is coming from, both with
regard to current in-place print publishing technology and vision for the
From: sm3-bounces at pwg.org [mailto:sm3-bounces at pwg.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 3:02 PM
To: sm3 at pwg.org
Subject: [SM3] Informal minutes of W3C Workshop conference call
Here are my informal minutes of today's W3C Workshop conference call. We
will have another call next Thursday, August 22, 2013 at 2pm ET.
W3C Workshop Conference Call
August 15, 2013 at 2pm ET / 11am PT
Daniel Manchala (Xerox)
Glen Petrie (Epson)
Mike Sweet (Apple)
Paul Tykodi (TCS)
Bill Wagner (TIC)
Rick Yardumian (Canon)
. Paul: No updates on W3C site yet
. Don't know whether we will be presenting
. Don't have access to other position papers
. Paul got previous notification at 5pm ET
. Mike probably won't be able to attend
. Bill can and will make arrangements
. Proposed presentation:
. CSS properties corresponding to SM Job Ticket elements
. Review old CSS Print stuff
. copies, finishings, media, sides
. Proposal: Extend CSS 2.1 Print to office and commercial
. Also review CSS media queries
. for printer capabilities (color mode, duplex,
staple, media, etc.)
. Q: Are we doing production printing or ???
. A: Certainly light production, print-on-demand,
book printing, etc.
. Q: CSS3 Page Media Module: should we upsell this?
. A: Yes, seems important for printing, also useful
for screen content with headers and footers (very common on web sites today
using "position: fixed" content.)
. Intertwined with job ticket - media and sides,
staple? might be used in media queries to control paper margins, front
side/back side, etc.
. Alternative CSS
. Single CSS property listing job tickets
. PWG PJT a required/recommended format?
. JDF optional
. Maybe still have a few properties to describe the
important aspects of the job ticket (media, sides, finishings, copies)
. Show implementations of CSS Print
. What is implemented by the major browsers
. What third-party software is available?
. Show PWG PJT coverage vs. CSS
. Add slide showing level of effort required to
update CSS 2.1 Print
. Most browsers support CSS Print properties/media
. THEAD, position: fixed content support
. Adding CSS properties should not be a big effort,
much harder to get rendering changes done
. Job Ticket Mapping experience
. PPD, MSPS, JDF, AFP, etc.
. Why you need standard job tickets/elements
. Print Experience/DOM
. Selecting a printer
. Getting printer capabilities
. Standard UI capabilities?
. to specify job ticket elements?
. but that has been a circular argument for many
. maybe because they are not
. based on the list of CSS properties we come
. Also restrictions? Maybe mention but we have no
. no print (publications)
. no save
. only 1 copy (coupons, shipping labels)
. always N copies
. Presentation length:
. Presumably short
. Next steps:
. Wait for word from W3C
. Also review existing position papers
. If we present, include backup slides for specific
. If we don't present, still do a slide deck we can refer
Michael Sweet, Senior Printing System Engineer, PWG Chair
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