IPP Mail Archive: RE: IPP> notification methods

IPP Mail Archive: RE: IPP> notification methods

RE: IPP> notification methods

From: McDonald, Ira (imcdonald@sharplabs.com)
Date: Mon Aug 14 2000 - 19:07:49 EDT

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    Carl you're doing a fine job - keep trying please.

    - Ira McDonald, consulting architect at Xerox and Sharp
      High North Inc

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Carl Kugler/Boulder/IBM [mailto:kugler@us.ibm.com]
    Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 3:32 PM
    To: Zehler, Peter
    Cc: jkm@underscore.com; ipp@pwg.org
    Subject: RE: IPP> notification methods


    Sure, I agree it would be useful; I just don't think it'll work. Suppose
    your mother buys a $100 home networking kit, adds another PC, and enables
    Windows Connection Sharing so that both can access the Internet. Will she
    be able to configure WCS so that one of the machines (can't do more than
    one) can receive INDP notifications? Will she inadvertantly open a gaping
    security hole in the attempt?

    Suppose she takes her laptop on the road to one of these modern hotels that
    provide an ethernet jack in every room. Pretty good chance that the hotel
    will be running IP Masquerading (or similar) so that 400 rooms can share
    one Internet connection. INDP won't be able to penetrate that network.

    Today's Internet infrastructure just isn't friendly to running a server at
    the user end. Basically INDP is a peer-to-peer technology. Which might be
    the next big thing, but it's not here yet:


    "Zehler, Peter" <Peter.Zehler@usa.xerox.com> on 08/14/2000 05:42:23 AM

    To: Carl Kugler/Boulder/IBM@IBMUS, "Zehler, Peter"
    cc: jkm@underscore.com, ipp@pwg.org
    Subject: RE: IPP> notification methods


    I do not claim that INDP will work with every network configuration. That
    is why I want to see a "registration" event sent as soon as an INDP
    registration is made. I do claim that a machine readable notification is
    useful, as is a human readable form. I claim that a "real time"
    notification mechanism is useful, as is a store-and-forward notification
    mechanism. I also claim there are network configurations in the home, on
    the road and in the office that allow INDP.

    There are configurations where mailto notification will not work. My
    can use IPP to print to my home printer. From her point of view she just
    presses the print button. She does not have an email account. For her,
    mailto would not be an option.


                        Peter Zehler
                        Xerox Architecture Center
                        Email: Peter.Zehler@usa.xerox.com
                        Voice: (716) 265-8755
                        FAX: (716) 265-8792
                        US Mail: Peter Zehler
                                Xerox Corp.
                                800 Phillips Rd.
                                M/S 139-05A
                                Webster NY, 14580-9701

    -----Original Message-----
    From: kugler@us.ibm.com [mailto:kugler@us.ibm.com]
    Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 12:57 PM
    To: Zehler, Peter
    Cc: jkm@underscore.com; ipp@pwg.org
    Subject: RE: IPP> notification methods


    I once tried to run a server on an ATT Worldnet dial-up account. It just
    didn't work. Their T&Cs say

     Additional Rules of Member Conduct

        1. not use your AT&T WorldNet Service dial-up connection to host a
          dedicated Internet server site.

    It's easy enough for them to prevent you from running a server, simply by
    blocking incoming connections. Whether or not they were actually blocking
    me, or something else was wrong, I don't know. Anyway, there are likely to
    be other problems. For example, (from the DSL Reports knowledge base,

     private ip
     Some DSL (or cable) networks may provide you a private IP address. The
     good news is that probably doesn't change, and is secure. The bad news is
     that it isn't a real IP so nobody on the internet can reach you, although
     you can reach everyone. This is essentially NAT implemented by the
     provider on a grand scale.

     NAT stands for Network Address Translation. NAT is a technique for
     translating one set of IP addresses, often private, to another set, often
     public. Compare NAT to socks -- NAT is often implemented on a router or
     specialized NAT box, although it is equally commonly implemented on a PC,
     running NAT software.

     NAT is a very flexible technique, but in the DSL world you will
     interested (or maybe using) just one implementation: NAT setup to allow a
     single public IP address to be simultaneously reused by multiple internal
     PCs with private IP addresses. To the outside world, you appear to have
     only a single IP, but you actually have many devices 'behind' this IP

     Note, you don't get something for nothing here! With NAT, as with socks,
     incoming connections can be problematic to setup, requiring configuration
     on your NAT capable router, or NAT software, to assign (map) external
     services (web, FTP and so on) through to specific internal machines. Many
     NAT capable devices or software are not sufficiently flexible to cope
     with all requirements and software you may have, and some 'NAT
     unfriendly' protocols break, even if NAT maps them correctly!

    Certainly you can get multiple fixed IP addresses, etc., if you're willing
    to pay for it. The question is: is the marginal utility of INDP
    notifications sufficient to justify the cost of these services.


    "Zehler, Peter" <Peter.Zehler@usa.xerox.com> on 08/11/2000 10:01:30 AM

    To: Carl Kugler/Boulder/IBM@IBMUS, jkm@underscore.com
    cc: ipp@pwg.org
    Subject: RE: IPP> notification methods


    I don't know who your ISP is but mine has no control over a server running
    on my host. They do control the length of my IP lease. In my case the
    lease lasts hours. Certainly enough time for a notification. (Not enough
    time to host a business...they charge for that.)

    I can have a fixed IP address and I can have multiple IP addresses if I so
    desire. The use of INDP assumes programmatic interactions in near real
    time. If I build an application that relies on this it may well impose
    requirements on system/network configurations as well as influence the
    components I buy.

    I see a real need for programmatic as well as end user notification. We
    should be specifying and building enabling technologies. Our role should
    enable policy not to enforce it.


                        Peter Zehler
                        Xerox Architecture Center
                        Email: Peter.Zehler@usa.xerox.com
                        Voice: (716) 265-8755
                        FAX: (716) 265-8792
                        US Mail: Peter Zehler
                                Xerox Corp.
                                800 Phillips Rd.
                                M/S 139-05A
                                Webster NY, 14580-9701

    -----Original Message-----
    From: kugler@us.ibm.com [mailto:kugler@us.ibm.com]
    Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 5:25 PM
    To: jkm@underscore.com
    Cc: ipp@pwg.org
    Subject: Re: IPP> notification methods

    It's equally impractical in the road warrior scenario. Most ISPs won't let
    you run a server unless you pay them for the privilege.

    SOHO is another problem. Windows Connection Sharing and other network
    address translation schemes are often used so that multiple hosts on a LAN
    can all reach the Internet through a single IP address allocated by the
    ISP. Of course, ISPs will be happy to sell you more addresses, for a
    monthly fee...

    So, it's impractical for enterprise, SOHO, and dial-up. What does that
    leave? Possibly some university networks (and Lexmark ;-) ); I can't
    think of much else.


    Jay Martin <jkm@underscore.com> on 08/04/2000 02:53:08 PM

    Please respond to jkm@underscore.com

    To: Carl Kugler/Boulder/IBM@IBMUS
    cc: ipp@pwg.org
    Subject: Re: IPP> notification methods


    Ah, now you've caught my attention... ;-)

    > Me and 99% of other end users in the real world. INDP over the Internet
    > not impossible, just impractical.

    We must assume your term "end users in the real world" refers to
    enterprise environments, right?

    That is, if the "real world" implies a usage scenario describing a
    "Road Warrior sitting in her hotel room wanting to print a document
    at a local copy shop", then in your opinion can INDP satisfy those
    99% of "real world" users? Or is it equally impractical as in the
    enterprise environment?


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